Woman Uncaged
In these unfiltered, unedited conversations, Linda Katz and Laura Gates-Lupton get real about what it means to live full, joyous, and meaningful lives in a culture that continues to silence, shrink, and sideline women.
Laura and Linda call out the ways patriarchy disguises systemic problems as personal failings, and they refuse to let women carry that lie alone. They question, illuminate, and lay bare the forces that shape women’s lives, while lifting up the possibility of something different.
With candor, humor, and plenty of personal stories, they invite women to stop hating themselves, reclaim their power, and opt out of the narratives that were never theirs to begin with.
Woman Uncaged
How Do We Center What Really Matters?
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Welcome to season 6, episode 6 of the Woman Uncaged podcast! In this week's episode, we dig into why your calendar can look “fine” and still feel like it belongs to someone else. We’re naming the pattern that many women inadvertently live inside: a part-time job that somehow takes over, a home that constantly calls for attention, and a life where what we truly value (creativity, friendship, nature, rest, meaningful work, etc.), keeps getting pushed to the edges.
We dig into why this happens and how it’s not a personal flaw. Patriarchal conditioning teaches women to center obligation and to treat what lights us up as optional. But it doesn't have to be that way!
If this conversation sparks something in you, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review. What would you center if you gave yourself permission?
Laura's Mastermind: https://www.carriebradley.com/mastermind
~Linda's book: Homecoming: One Woman's Story of Dismantling Her Inner Cage and Freeing Her Wild Feminine Soul
~Laura's Monday Money Missives: https://goodwithmoney.substack.com/
~Linda's Wild Woman in the Burbs: https://lindasewalliuskatz.substack.com/
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Email us: womanuncagedpodcast@gmail.com. We love hearing from you!
Warm Welcome And Friendship Love
LindaHello everyone and welcome to episode six, season six of the Woman Uncaged Podcast. My name is Linda Katz, and I'm here with my beloved business bestie, dear friend, all-around wonderful human coach, writer, editor, Ms. Laura Gates Lepton. Laura, it's so wonderful to be here with you today, as always. Laura is just such a wonderful person, friend. I'm so grateful to have you in my life. Someone who I can share my dreams, like weird ass night dreams that I've been having, along with the big dreams that I might have in life, the moments where I'm having panic or fear or I'm playing small. And you're just there for all of it. And I always know that it's such a safe and warm and loving place to land that you offer. And I'm just so grateful to have you in my life because I don't know, man. It'd be really hard to wander these streets without you these days. And for those of you who would love a little bit more of that in your life, I cannot recommend checking out Laura and her work because she offers much of that to her clients as well through her mastermind that she's running, through one-on-one coaching. Um, you can get a taste of it on the Good With Money Substack. She's just a whip smart, deeply feeling, seeing both practically, intuitively, like the whole package. If you want the whole integrated package in your corner in your life of Wise Woman Extraordinaire, please get into Laura's orbit. It is such a pleasure to be here with you today, my friend, as it always is. Thank you so much, Linda. I'm just like, oh sweet. Well, back at you. I mean, I just love having you in my life. And whenever you're traveling or I'm traveling or we don't connect for a while, man, I feel it. You know, it's like it's such a life-giving connection. And like you said, it's about all the things. All the things. And I, you know, if you want more of Linda, then you have to check out her book, Homecoming. I was thinking about the other day, like, you know, when you read Linda's book, you don't even have to think about if AI was involved because there wasn't AI at the time. I wouldn't use it now, people. She wouldn't, but but seriously, it's and not that you wouldn't figure it out right away anyway, because it's reflected in the depth and the wisdom that she offers. I mean, you don't get that from AI. And that's part of what I love about Linda is that she is the real deal. She's got so much depth to her and so much wisdom. And even when I first met her, and she was so young and like 30s, I was like, what? How is this person so smart and so wise? She has an old yeah, no way. She has an old soul. She has an old soul, and it shows up in everything that she does. And that's one of the reasons why she's my bestie. I'm so lucky to count her among my very best friends. Um, because yeah, we can share everything, including this wild ride that we do every Friday. Oh, yes, it's always something. It's always something exciting, guys. When we come in here and we hit record, we'll chat it up for a few minutes beforehand. And sometimes we'll be like, wait, why did I just start telling you this story? Wait, I was just about to say something, and then we laugh about we're like, oh my god, what's gonna happen with our recording today? It's definitely one of those days. So hang on, folks. It's gonna be a bumpy ride. Neither of us have our brains in gear today.
Women’s Circle Invite And Waitlist
LindaI do too. And before we jump in there, we would love to invite you all. We ran our first beta salonslash women's circle. It was so wonderful earlier this week with some of our dear listeners and friends that we know well. And we really loved it. It was wonderful to have more women involved in the conversation to hear how some of the themes that we explore on the podcast are moving through your life, how you're interfacing with them. And so we would love to see if that's something that you're interested in. So if you are, if that's something that you want, is more depth in your female friendships and relationships, a space that is safe to discuss some of the things that we you hear about on this podcast. Please shoot us an email at womanuncaged podcast at gmail.com. So that's womanuncaged podcast at gmail.com to get on the wait list for when we do our next salon. And the uh the theme is TBD. So we'll we'll keep you updated on that one. Please put wait list in the subject line. We get a lot of emails, so that would be really helpful.
unknownYes.
LindaYes. So on that note, Ms. Laura, what the heck are we talking about today?
Why Women Struggle To Center Values
LindaWell, I don't even know exactly how to frame it, which is sort of perfect. Um we're talking about, and this is something that kind of started percolating in in the at the salon and then um took more shape as you and I were voxing about it this week. But we were talking about how it can be so challenging for women to center things that are important to us in our lives. We have a tendency to center things that either matter to other people or about other people, or things like jobs or beholden to somebody else or something else, a corporation or a company or whatever. We have a tendency to center those things quite easily. But when it comes to things that we want to do, even our own businesses, like Linda and I were talking about this this week, that if you have a part-time job, this is the thing that astonished me when I had a part-time job. I took a part-time job while my daughter was in college because I had promised her, she was homeschooled and I had promised her if she got the top merit scholarship to the private, very expensive community uh college she wanted to go to, uh liberal arts college, that I would make up the difference. And she got it. So then I was like, man, I do not want to have to scramble my business every month to make this work. So I took a part-time job and I had it for three and a half years and paid the difference in her tuition. Um, but what amazed me was even when I was down to 15 hours a week in that job, it somehow took over. It just somehow took over. And it just, you know, it just didn't seem any different than when I worked full-time in some ways. It's so weird. I know, and I really thought, oh, this will be fine. I'll work these 15 hours and I'll have all this other time to focus on my clients and my business, and I'll just all blend together. But it was kind of a struggle the whole time. And so we were talking about how that's true. But if it were just about the work, if it's just that we center work, then having our own businesses where we don't have an outside job would mean that we just easily focus on our businesses and we don't do that either. We tend to focus on relationships, things that need to be doing done around the house. A lot of us work from home. It's so easy to think, oh my gosh, I need to do the laundry, the dishes, what am I going to make for dinner? Oh, I could pop in the kitchen and get that started now while I have a break.
unknownYeah.
LindaYou know, it's just it's almost impossible to just focus. And this is related to other things we've talked about, but I think the difference is we're talking about wanting to center something in our lives on a daily basis. Something that so that we know that, yep, this is the thing that's most important. This is what I'm doing. And why is that, Linda? Why is it so hard? Now, Linda's gonna share the answer and solve the problem.
unknownYep.
LindaAnd then we'll be done and we'll be wrapped up here in just 15 minutes. I wish. But it's so interesting because I've been working part-time for the last few years, and this was something that um, you know, what you shared, Laura, I've experienced also is that even though it feels like it's it's like should you should have all of this expanse of time around, you know, if you're working 20 hours a week, which is around the time that I typically devote to my part-time job, it it still feels like that is the thing that the rest of my life revolves around. Like that's the first priority. And then everything else gets slotted in around it, even though if I if you were to ask me what my values are and what truly matters to me and what I want to devote my time and energy to, that would not be in the top three priorities, probably. You know, it's like I want to devote time to relationships, I want to devote time to nature, I want to devote time to writing, creativity, the work that is close to my heart. And yet, yeah, it does seem to take precedence. And that was not the case for me when I was doing my own coaching business. Like, and I think part of it, like this was something that we were discussing via Voxer, is that there is still, I think, this sense, at least there was for me, that um I was doing the coaching work and like, you know, I was teaching KOIA at the time, and um, you know, growing this whole body of work around coming home to ourselves. Plus, the book Homecoming. Um, but it was like, oh, it's like I'm doing it because it was something that I wanted to do, it became something that I was just doing for me, even though my work was devoted to other people. Like that was literally what the work was about was supporting other women on their journey. In some
The Gift Trap And Undercharging
Lindaway, for many years, the way I approached it was still that it was like a gift that I was giving myself. And this was something that we were talking about too, when it comes to charging money for our work. That as women, we oftentimes I think pursue it or view it through this lens. And that makes it also hard to charge what the work is actually worth and a rate that is sustainable and commensurate with our experience because there's still like this, oh, but the work, I'm just doing it, you know, it's so fulfilling that. I enjoy it. I enjoy it, so I shouldn't get paid for it. And it's like, I think that what we just shared, I was like, oh, now I'm beginning to see more of the strands than I couldn't before. Is that, oh, if you enjoy it, it shouldn't come first and you shouldn't be paid for it. That there are then other things are meant to come. Like if it's just if there's any it's its own record, it's its own reward, the joy. And sometimes it is, it is a reward. Like it, of course, we love having things that we are investing our time and energy in that are fulfilling. And that doesn't mean that it's like, oh, but because it's fulfilling, it's like this woman math that we've been taught in patriarchy. It's like, oh, if it's fulfilling, it has to be slotted later on down in the priority schedule after the laundry and the cooking and the part-time job and all the other things. How do you feel about that, Laura? How do I feel about it? And what do you think about it? I can imagine how you feel about it, but you can tell our listeners. It pisses me off. Let me tell you that right there. Um, because I have known men, like for example, I can think of a doctor whom I know who just absolutely loves his work. He's got four kids at home, a set of them that are twins. His wife, I forget exactly what she does, which is interesting that I can't remember because I did know. And she works, but she sort of works her work around the family. And this man is a doctor and he adores his work. And he he said, like, you know, the paycheck is just the icing on the cake. But he didn't say, I don't need it, or I don't deserve it, or he didn't make he didn't apologize for it, he doesn't excuse it. You know, and I and it's just this whole notion of like, well, it's it's we're selfless, right? So if something serves us, then we have to give back because otherwise it's selfish in this patriarchal situation that we're swimming in. Yes. Yeah. And that I don't even have words. It just makes me so mad. It makes me so mad because it also fits into this larger system of women being trapped in relationships they don't want to be in, situations they don't want to be in because they're not getting enough money, so they don't have the freedom to get out, even though that can kind of be a myth too. But you know, it's it's all a part of this patriarchal system. And it's so easy to unconsciously participate in it, you know, like the ways where I'm like, oh, I I am centering my life around things that, you know, that isn't my top priority. And questioning and beginning to ask myself, what would it look like if the things that I value, if I wrote down like what are the things that I hold most dear, that I value most in the world, and I centered my life around those things, how would that show up in my day-to-day? How would I show up differently? How might I feel different? I think that's a worthy experiment right there. I think so too. It's like it's very exciting and a little scary because you're like, oh my God, you know, it's it is so counterculture to even have a woman be able to say that. Yes. Because usually it's like, again, it's it's driven by obligation, by selflessness. And it's just so interesting that even in, like, you know, for you and I who have spent a lot of time in service-oriented work, like really wanting to be of service to our clients and to the women in our lives, it's like even that isn't enough if you're getting paid for it. Because then you're getting you're getting paid and you're getting fulfillment and you get to choose it. That's like, oh, too much goodness. Must shovel one of those away to make it a little bit more comfortable, lest anyone think that she's gotten too big for her britches or something like that. Yes. Yes. I have to say that I've been happy in a way that I love the mastermind that we're, you know, running that Carrie Bradley and I are running. It's been amazing. We did two sessions and I'm so lit up by it. The women are incredible. I just love what we're doing. I'm so happy though, that the fact that we're not charging enough chafes me. Like I realized that we're definitely gonna charge more next time around. We made a conscious decision to charge less this time for a variety of reasons. It's but it is just this one time. And in part and it's really bothering me. It's a lot of work. And I love that it's bothering me.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
LindaYes. I feel like there's like, I totally hear that because I I got to that point in some of the things that I was doing in my business. Cause you're like, oh, I'm not, I'm not solely doing this, just I'm not a it's not a volunteer position. Right. It's like this is actually my work, this is my livelihood. Like, and you have so much experience and so much expertise on on the back end of additionally the time and energy and the work that you're putting into creating this thing, right? Or co-creating it, that it's like between all of these, you're like, okay, feeling that chafing, I can totally understand that. Like, oh, I don't, this does not feel good to me. Like, I know that I'm undercharging and it does not feel good to me. Yes. And I'm so glad because I didn't, it used to be something that was more of an intellectual thing for me. I knew it wasn't good, but it didn't bother me that much.
unknownYeah.
LindaNow it's like, no, I know it's not good and it really bothers me.
unknownYeah.
LindaNot saying, in case any of the past of mine listening people happen to listen to this, I love the group and we made a conscious decision to charge. So I'm not the what we charge. So I'm not saying like it's a mistake or I wish it were different and it's gonna affect how I feel about the group. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying that I'm glad that my consciousness around this has evolved to a place where it's not gonna happen again.
unknownYep.
LindaYep. I love that. I mean, and that's what I think we want more of for more women. Okay, which begs the question, boo. Boo. What
Designing A Life By Seasons
Lindawould you like to center your life around? Like when you imagine this question, like if you could design what your life is centered around, does it look any different than what you're doing now? Like what would what would shift? What would stay the same? I'm curious. I think um I see this is a seasonal thing. So it's for right now, for absolutely right now, I would like it to be centered more around income generating activities. Um, because as everybody knows, I'm like in the middle of a divorce, although actually I'm not in the middle anymore. We are getting close to the end. And so I need to be, yay, I know, I know, it's so exciting. Um and it has other feelings to it too at times, but it's pretty exciting. Um I feel like like I'm gonna I need to be able to support myself and I want to be able to support myself well, and there's so many competing interests, and some of some of it's my interests, and some of it is outside forces. Um, and of course, I'm dealing with my dad being terminally ill right now and being at the end of his life, and so that's also involved, um, which is challenging. There's a lot family-wise going on. The divorce has been taking up a ton of my time, like all the legwork and everything. So I would really love a period where the business could just be my focus for a bit and really like center my days around that. But and I only work a four-day work week. So four days of the week, I would like to be centered around that. And then, you know, the rest be more focused on the other things that I I love and enjoy. Um and I'm I am trying to get back to that. I feel like I've had that in the past. It shouldn't be so hard, but in some ways it is. It and it's like you were saying, it's like there are different seasons of life, and there are oftentimes will be competing interests. So it's like, as I think this is a good reminder for myself too. It's like, oh, I don't need to beat myself up over it, or you know, it's like sometimes that's just the way the cookie crumbles to a certain degree, and we have the agency to be able to change it when we're people, you know, it's like find holding both of those at the same time. Totally. I mean, as I'm sitting here, I just like I didn't, I've not that I haven't thought of this before, but I'm also just sort of realizing like the paralegal's work hours are similar to mine. And so, and that's what I'm working with for the divorce. And so when the paralegal emails me and says we need X, I drop everything and do it because I can't. If I wait till after work, then they don't get it till the next day. And then, you know, it's like it would just everything would be taking twice as long. Yeah, literally twice as long if I waited. So I instead I'm I I check my email more now than I did before because I'm always checking to see if there's anything from them. And if there is, I drop everything. And I don't stop client calls, but you know what I mean. Yeah. Um, to send them what they're asking for because I want this thing done.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
LindaSo that's part of it right there. That's a big part of it. It's very disruptive to have to keep checking the email just to see if there's anything from them. Yeah. And then to be able to like, it's hard to get into the the flow and the momentum of what you're doing, too, if you're doing that, and then it's like, oh, here, there is something that they need. So now I need to like shift focus and like work on this thing. And then it takes time, at least for me, to switch back into whatever it was that I was doing before. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm also figuring out a rhythm with my fiance around his schedule flexes so much. And lately he's been home a lot. And it's been sort of like, oh, tomorrow I don't go to work till three. And I'm like, oh, well, I start at 10, you know, and we live in a small place. And so making like prioritizing my work over time, like negotiating that too. And he's not it's he's great. If I say I'm working, he's great. He's like not in my way. So it's not so much that he's trying to insert himself, it's just that it's new to be trying to work in a small place with somebody who's around. And so this week I um recorded uh something when he was around in and out of the room, which I normally don't do, and I led a mastermind session when he was in and out of the room, and I was very proud that it worked fine. And I thought, okay, well, this is also good too, because I'm evolving into somebody who doesn't have to have total like my own little sealed hermetic chamber in order to do my work. I love that. Yeah. Because I always think of it as like I can't have any interruptions. Right, yeah. And you're like, oh, he's just around and I'm okay. I can be focused on this, and he could just be existing in the in the space with me. Yeah, as long as it's not like my dad coming over and sticking his head in the screen and pretending he's talking to people, which he has done. Yeah, that's why Laura doesn't work from her parents' house. No, even though they're all Always saying to me, you can work here. You can work here. Like, no, apparently not. Like, I've tried. It didn't work out well. I have tried so hard. My dad. God love him. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. It's just, I think it's, I love the seasonality aspect of it. I love the, you know, the ongoing negotiations with as our life changes, as we grow, as we transform. Like this isn't a one and done. Like it's, it's, it's a constantly evolving thing, you know, as we've talked about before. If you have a child, you know, a newborn, if you have a puppy, if you have anything new in your life, if you have a parent who's dealing with a health issue, like there is going to be things that are coming in and shaking things up, for lack of a better word. And so being able to dance with those things, make space with those things, and at the same time noticing, I think, the places for me where it's like, oh, but even apart from that, just in my normal day to day when there is no shakeup, I'm still centering the things that I don't want to be centering. Yes. So I want to turn that question around to you. What do you want to be centering? And I know you're you've been in the season of questioning like what you want to be doing. So I'll be curious to hear this answer.
Friendship As A Daily Priority
LindaYeah. I think that's what makes it um, that's what makes it a little bit tricky. And I think I've fallen into the pattern of centering my part-time job because it is my primary income generator currently. And so that's kind of taken precedence. But then I've just noticed that I don't feel as lit up when that's the case. Um, and so for me, what I would like to take precedence would be time outside with Ursa and Eric when it's not balls hot. Right now it's not now. Right now, that occurs from roughly 6 a.m. to 9 30 a.m. And then that's it until maybe late, late, late in the evening. Um I would like one of the things that I am really putting a focus on is tending to friendships, whether it's friendships that are um, you know, further apart, geographically speaking, like making time and conscious choice to connect with people. I'm going on a girls' trip with some friends from college in November that I haven't seen in a long time. That was actually me and another friend that spearheaded it. I think because she lives in Arizona, we were like, please take us away from these hot ass places and we're going to Northern California. Um, but also like beginning to reach out more and establish friendships and relationships here where I live. Like that's been one of the things that I would like to center more in my life is like getting out into the world a bit more. Because that's when I feel the most alive, usually, is not when I'm sitting in front of my phone and I'm like, uh, work is boring. So I'm just gonna like browse Instagram and then 20 minutes go by, I'm like, oh my God, I could like come out of the cave, like, where have I been? Let me put the phone away, you know? And I'm like, that's not the life that I want for myself. And recognizing that it's like, okay, but if it's not, then I need to make different choices and I need to be willing to be a bit more vulnerable. Because sometimes meeting, especially meeting new friends, and you know, we're this is something we talked about in our salon, um in out in the wild, it's like, oh God, like making friends as an adult when you don't have kids, or do you have shared interests? I don't know. It's just like this awkward, like you feel like you're in seventh grade, or at least for me, I'm like, I feel like I'm in seventh grade with my there's no room sitting in the cafeteria. Exactly. You're just like walking around being like, can I make eye contact with anybody in here that they would like flag me over? Like the sheer awkwardness of it. Yes. Um, and being able to tolerate that because that is something that I do want to establish more of. And so I think those are two things. So time outside with the people, the person and the creature, um, and time with friends, spending time cultivating that. Um, and I think the last one would be some form of creativity, whether it's writing or art, and really prioritizing that. Because what I feel like is in this time where I'm questioning where I want to move to in in multiple ways, like the uh where which direction I want to go in in my life in terms of my work. And um I feel like it's like this fortification process of filling the well, like coming to the well, filling the well, remembering that, oh, I'm not alone in this phase, that women have been through it before or in it currently, that not everyone has all their shit figured out, even when it may look like that from the outside. Like just spending the time to um, yeah, fortification is the word that comes to mind, or just really deep deep nourishment for whatever is to come next. So enjoying the in-between, which has not been my forte. I'm like, what? Spent so much time last year. Like, what am I doing with my life? What am I doing with my life? Like, oh my god, what am I doing with my life? And now I'm like, can I just enjoy this time? Can I make this be a nourishing time? And and that can feel really uh uncomfortable because yeah, it's like, oh, it's time for self-nourishment, like that's a priority in all these different ways. Like, yikes. That's what the patriarchal programming says. Yikes. Yeah, no, I get that. It's um new territory in some ways. Oh, yeah. So it's easier to retreat to focusing on the part-time job, even if it's like, oh, I don't really have a lot that I need to do there right now, or I'm not really focused. I'm gonna be kind of spending my time between that and browsing doomsday scenarios on Instagram or on the news and reading all the bad things that are happening in life. And I'm like, oh, that's not even though I think that's kind of sadly more normalized in our culture, which is that's the sad part. And it's like, oh, noticing also where I'm like, I'm but I'm falling into that. Like I'm I'm not actively choosing it, but I'm kind of like just a bystander in my own life of just letting it happen. And it's like, okay, time to try something different.
Get Out Of The House
LindaI was thinking of you last night, because we, you know, we've been talking about your desire to get out in the world a bit more and how it's easy to just stay home, um, which is true for me too. But last night, you know, we went and saw Bonnie Raitt, and it was so she was so inspiring. I mean, if anybody listening, if you get a chance, if you like her music and you get a chance to see her perform live, do it. She was just incredible. I did I was so grateful to be there. But also just afterward, it was at the state fair here in Minnesota. So it was great people watching. Oh my gosh, the people. It was amazing. Um, so yeah, it was like afterward, we were walking around. It was getting, well, it was dark actually. It was a beautiful moon that was um, I was gonna say collapsing. Oh god, that book's getting to me, Linda. That's why I had to take a break. It was eclipsing. Um, Linda and I are reading at the same time a book about collapse of systems and the climate. And um, because there's some books you don't want to read alone. Just some light, some nice light reading. Yeah, that's what we're we're referencing. You will hear more about it at some point, dear listeners, because we will be talking about it. But anyway, last night it just felt like just walking around, seeing all the people and thinking about what it takes to put on a state fair, like just watching everything and all of that. I just found it so inspiring, but also just it was like food for thought. It was nourishing in its own way, just to get out and be in a completely different environment from my day-to-day. And so just hearing Bonnie Raitt talk about her life and watch her perform and then being in this crowd of people, you know, mostly people from Minnesota, but I'm sure people from other places, I don't know, it just sort of stirred things up for me. And I thought, yeah, this is evidence of what Linda and I've been talking about. You need to get out of the house. Yes. And it's like, I feel like, I mean, you're more extroverted than I am, Laura, but we're also, you know, we we are readers, we love, we love to read. We both work from home. Yeah. So there's like we're also people who can easily entertain ourselves. Yes. So it's very easy to just like not leave because there's just there's a lot of activity that happens within our minds, with our with what we're reading, with what we're thinking about, with you know, connections that we're making, with the work that we're doing, with people that we connect with lovingly, thank you, goddess, over Zoom and on phone calls. Yeah, it can be so easy to then miss out on like the the the big messy world that exists out there. But when I've had the same experience, it's like when I do venture forth and remember that part of myself, I'm like, oh, I also remember that generally speaking, people aren't so bad. Which when I just see them online, I'm like, oh my god, what is this? Like, what's happening? Because you see, sadly, most of the stuff that is presented on the news and in, you know, in the digital world in a lot of ways is like the worst parts of humanity. Yeah. And it's like, I don't, I don't want, I already have enough of those like questionable beliefs already about our kind. And I'm like, I don't need to feed that part of myself more. Like, I want to feed the part that gets stirred up and that gets curious about people when I'm out in a crowd and has those moments. Like, I remember having a like almost a similar feeling many, many, many years ago when I was at Austin City Limits with my friend Jody, and it was hot as balls because it's in Austin in like September or October, and we were sitting in the shade, and I was completely sober when I said this. I hadn't smoked anything, I hadn't drank anything, and I was just sitting there, people watching, and I had this profound epiphany that I was like, isn't it funny how like we're all so different and yet we're so the same? Wow, I've never heard that before. No one ever said that before. Jody, my friend Joni was just like deep, Linda.
SPEAKER_02But it like really landed for me.
LindaIt's funny how I've had things like that too, where it's like, oh, this is so cliche, but I just got it. It just like it just lands. It's like you know it, but then all of a sudden you have this visceral experience of just watching people. I like I think it comes with this like love of our fellow humans, like in all of our messiness and all of our grasping and all of our confusion and all of our mistakes and our glories. It's like, oh yeah, that and like wanting to to have more of that, like to be the because without it, it's like how do we be the force for that in the world too? Like I don't, I don't think it's at least for me, I don't think it's possible. I end up being a force of something else, so just like rage. If I'm if my dreams are accurate, I'm gonna be able to do that. I was just gonna say that. I was just gonna say that. Okay, so I have a question for you.
Discomfort And Boundaries That Stick
LindaYes, ma'am. She says reluctantly. I know exactly what you want, bro. What what do you think it would take or will take to center these things that you're talking about? You're talking about the times outside with Ursa and Eric when it's not, you know, an oven and these friendships, like building local friendships and and uh honoring and spending time in the ones that you already have, but maybe aren't so local. What what do you think? Well, I guess you can think of it one of two ways. What would it take or what gets what would get in the way? Like what do you need to deal with in order to make it happen? Well, I feel like the first one I feel like I do a pretty good job of already because it's easy. And like just like I love I love spending time outside with Ursa in the morning and just doing my journaling, looking up at the cottonwood tree, like that part great. I think the biggest hurdle is actually not anything that is external to me. I think the biggest hurdle for the friendship piece, especially the local part, is being able to deal with the discomfort. Being able to deal with the the discomfort that comes with growth, with doing something that's outside your comfort zone. That's literally why it's outside your comfort zone, is because it's fucking uncomfortable, you know. Um to be to be okay with that and to trust in like my resilience to be able to do that and not to make it like I was talking with uh Lana who was on the podcast last week, and you know, it was like this. She was asking if there was something that I could do that would be, you know, like an activity or something. So it would be like meeting people would be a like byproduct, exactly, which I think is a beautiful suggestion. And I was like, and I still think that would require a little bit more of this like discomfort. It's still, I feel like it's just become a habit in some ways to do the low-hanging fruit. And I think that not to like totally let myself off the hook here, but I do also think that our society has been engineered in such a way that we have reduced any as many points of potential friction, quote unquote, as we can. You know, I see these Amazon drones just like flying overhead, dropping packages in backyards. And, you know, you don't you don't even have to go out and go shopping anymore or run an errand, or you know, so much of just the quote unquote again, like the friction of life, but that's where those moments are where you actually you might feel that discomfort. You might turn to somebody, you might have a conversation if you don't live in Minnesota where all the Scandinavians went and they don't do that thing. Uh we just hide from everyone, it's fine. It's a cultural trait. It's a cultural trait. I'm so used to friendly Ithaca. Here it's not quite like that. People are it's not that they're friendly, they smile and say hello, but you just can't engage people in conversation if you don't already know them for the most part. I'm telling you, that's this that's the Scandinavian culture. I sent Laura a silly meme where it was like, how long does it take to make a new friend in Europe? And it had like different color-coded countries, and some it was like Spain was like one day and one week, and I think all of the Scandinavian countries was like one century. Good luck. Best of luck making a friend. Yeah, explained a lot. But I so I think it's the inner, like it's again, it's those inner cages, it's the inner um places for me, I think, that would um would be required for me to prioritize those things. It's like venturing forth out of the comfort zone more than I've been doing, and not letting myself be like, oh no, like, but then it becomes a should or I'm forcing myself. It's like, yeah, maybe I kind of am. But then when if I feel better on the on the back end of it, maybe that's not such a bad thing to have to give myself a little push in the tuokis to like go do something different. Right. How about for you? What do you feel like? I knew you were gonna ask that. Um it's funny because it is such a priority for me, but I think part of it is after being in this situation for a long time where I felt so trapped, I have really enjoyed more spontaneity in my life. And that has leaked into my business hours. Um, so you know, when I get vox messages from you or somebody else, and I'm like, oh, Linda or whoever, you know, and it's like waiting for my desk I go. Um, or you know, Richard's like, oh, I'm gonna be home till three. I'm like, oh, what can we do? Um, and also because I have a partner whose company I enjoy so much when he's around, it's hard to be like, no, I'm gonna be working over here. Um unless I have a deadline or something and that makes it like imperative. So I think it's gonna be a matter of making sure I still make time for all those things. Plenty of spontaneity at other times. Because I I it's one thing I found that I really love is being spontaneous. I didn't have it for so long that I really love that. And I'm in a relationship with ship with somebody who's very spontaneous, so that's really fun. But I just have to, it can't be during my work hours, you know? Yeah. Um, and making sure I build in breaks so I can listen to the boxer messages and making sure I'm doing all those fun things on the days that I'm not working. I think part of my, like, I don't know if it's like my inner adolescent, but there's some part of me that's like, once I start being serious about the business, it'll take over and I'll let go of all of that. You know, there's some inner thing there that's a little bit afraid. Um because it's not that I'm not working. I am working, it's just that I'm not spending as much time as I need to on the income generating things. I know this because this is what I coach people on all the time. It's like if you're not doing income generating work, you're not gonna generate income. It's like, so I'm saying this to myself. So I'm like, Yeah, I need to, you know, button chair and the reaching out to people and you know, getting in front of people and talking to people, letting people know what I'm doing, and um, all the things that I know is how generates referrals, generates income, generates clients.
unknownYeah.
LindaUm, but I think I think that's the thing. It's like some part of me is like, it's like, I was freed and I don't want to go back in the box. I don't blame you. So I have to make sure that it is in a box. That's the thing. It's up to me to just make sure it is in a box. I love that. I love that because I feel like it's what I heard in there was kind of the like the little like the all or nothing. Right. It's like, oh, if I focus on this, it's gonna wipe out all of this freedom that I've created.
unknownYeah.
LindaRather than it being part of that freedom or another expression of it and creating it in such a way or designing it in such a way that it feels like that, or at least feels more like that. Yeah. I'll tell you one thing, I don't want. Right now, it's not like there's something heavy weighing over me where I'm like, oh my god, I have to make some money. I don't want it to get to that point. Makes sense. I want to create it while it still feels like I'm choosing to, and I want to, and not that I have to. I love that distinction.
unknownYeah.
LindaAnd recognizing that like the difference between those things. And some people love to have their back up against the wall. Like some people are like, This is when I shine. I am not one of those people. I have been in the past, but it has a toll. Uh and I don't want to pay that toll. Yeah. You know, it definitely has a cost to me energetically. I just like then it because then it does take over, then it does like become the box, the driver. And I just see that's the thing. Yeah, yeah. I love that. Such great food for thought. Yeah, and actually, I didn't see all that until just now in this conversation. So it's been really helpful. This is what I love. See, we did it, we did it, Dan. This is why we love we have to have and record these podcasts so that we get make all kinds of new connections every week. It's amazing. We're like, oh shit, I never saw it that way.
SPEAKER_02It's true. It's true.
LindaThere's been so many times, and then we jump off and fox about it afterwards. Like, oh that's true. Well, last week after our salon, we well, we stayed online for like an hour and a half. Just talking about it, maybe two hours. Maybe two hours, I know. I was like, we like looked up and it was 6 30. It was it was like two hours. Yeah, yeah. We were like, oh shit. Dinner's not gonna make itself. Nope. Oh, we gotta go. But see, that's the point though. That's the kind of stuff that I love. I still want the freedom to do that. I don't want it to be like, oh, I gotta go because I gotta make money. No, exactly. I don't want that either. And it's like it's um, I mean, I feel like you've been such an inspiration to see the spontaneity, like the this and the zest for life that comes along with it. And it's like, yeah, of course you wouldn't want to get like be like, okay, now I'm gonna put that on the back burner so I can focus on this thing. It's like, no, there has to be some other way to to relate to these two things. Cause I will oftentimes joke that sometimes Laura and her fiancé are kind of like college kids and it's we are very much like religious. I'm like, you're like, wait, you guys were up until how late? You were eating what? Like two in the morning routinely on weekends, and sometimes midweek. True, actually. But I love that you guys are also nine owls, which is like yes, we're don't we don't we also don't get that uh ability when it's so hot. The dog is up at six every day. Yeah, but I mean he works at nine a lot of mornings, so it's like, yeah, it's it's not the wisest course of action, but it's a lot of fun. I love that. It's like remember when we were talking about irreverent maturity, yes. There there's something about that that feels like like we've this might be a topic for another
Aging With Freedom And Fun
Lindauh podcast. We were talking about aging and how we want to age and how we don't. You were talking about that with like watching Bonnie Raitt. Yeah, you know, and it's like I think that the freedom that can come along with aging, and you know, if you have kids like growing out of that season of life, it's like there's just a whole other option that's available that I think we don't really talk about culturally that yeah makes it like, oh fuck, there's a lot to look forward to in life. Well, at least if I'm any example. Well, and Bonnie Rate too. I mean, one of the things she said last night, which I know I already shared with you, but she was saying, like, she's been on the road for the last five years, and she's like, and I'm gonna keep doing it as long as I can. And she said, if this life looks like fun, it is.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
LindaI'm like, yeah, that's what I want, man. She's 76 years old, she's up there shaking it, and she's like doing her thing, and she's so talented and she's so much herself and she's having fun. Yeah, I love that. I hope that I can get that energy when I'm 76 and when I'm 46. I want that. Like if if this life life looks like fun, it's because it is. Like, yes. Yes. Yes. I know. I just I just found her so inspiring in so many ways. Um and I love her music, so it was awesome to hear her. It's like dream come true for me. Oh, I love that. Yeah, yeah. Well, I know we're at the end of our time. Look at us at the end of our time. We talked about centering our lives. Look, it all came together. We remembered what we were saying, it's a Christmas miracle. And from now on, our lives are perfectly centered at all times. Oh, of course, yes. Yes. Well, we want it to be a Hallmark movie, right? Yeah, exactly. One and done. Now that we've now we've figured out that problem, on to the next one. Yes, okay. All right, well, dear listeners, until next time.
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