Embracing Risk Pt. 2 with Special Guest Lana Price

Welcome to Woman Uncaged, Season 6, Episode 5!

Risk is usually framed as a binary: stay safe and unseen, or step into visibility and take the hits. We don’t buy that. 

As a follow up to our previous episode about embracing risk, we sit down with our friend and devoted listener Lana Price, writer and creator of Pragmagical, to offer a smarter and kinder model for embracing risk, especially for midlife women navigating change, anxiety, and the desire to be fully expressed.

If you’re craving a grounded approach to visibility, community building, life transitions, and becoming who you really are, press play. Then subscribe, share with a friend who needs a gentler next step, and leave a review so more women can find these conversations.

Lana's wonderful newsletter can be found here:
https://www.pragmagical.com/

Email us to get on the waiting list for our Woman Uncaged Salons: womanuncagedpodcast@gmail.com. Please put "waiting list" in the subject line. 

Book mentioned: 

Life Is in the Transitions: Mastering Change at Any Age  by Bruce Feiler

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Lana Price

Linda 0:03

Hello everyone. Welcome to Woman Uncage, season six, episode five. We have a really special day for you here. But first, I'm going to introduce my dear, beloved, wonderful bestie, Linda Katz, and I'm going to keep this really brief today. If you haven't picked up her book Homecoming from Amazon, please do. It'll be the best introduction to Linda that you could possibly have. It is such a wonderful book, just absolutely lyrical, beautiful. You won't want to put it down. You know, in the meantime, check out some more of our episodes and listen to her here. She's an awesome human being, and I'm so lucky to have her in my life. Over to you, Linda. Thank you so much, Laura. That was so concise. Thank you. I can do it once in a while. And I am here with my beloved and dear friend, Miss Laura Gates Lepton, who, if you've been listening to the podcast, you know that Laura is an amazing coach who helps midlife women to step into their full becoming and blossoming financially and otherwise in terms of identity and imagining what kind of life we want to be living at this point. And so the best place I would say to find Laura is on the Good With Money Substack, which is linked in the show notes. You could get her Monday Money Missives, which is a tongue twister to say out loud. And make sure that you're up to date on all of the amazing offerings that she has going on. And today, my dear listener friends, we have a very special bum brum. I wish we had like the drum roll, please. Uh special guest, another dear friend, Lana Price, who I met Lana. Do you remember what year it was? Lana? 2018. 2018, that's what I was thinking. So it's like sneaking up on a decade. We met in Austin in 2018 when Lana was dating a friend of my husband's. Uh, he later became her husband. And I remember the first time that I met Lana afterwards, I told Eric, I was like, you know, if they break up, I'm keeping Lana. Just saying, like she's not going anywhere. Because Lana is just an amazing, wonderful human being. She is a writer, she is a thinker, she is a futurist, she is a consultant. Her latest project that she's working on is called Pragmagical, which is a wonderful blog that we will link to in our show notes. I highly suggest that if you enjoy this podcast, my sneaking suspicion is that you will also very much enjoy Lana's blog. She melds so many of the things that we talk about here, which I think is inherent even in the name Pragmagical. It's part pragmatic and part magical, and like weaving in these different aspects of who we are and these different aspects of life. And she does so really beautifully, really thoughtfully. She's also an amazing tarot reader. So just make sure you go in and sign up for that. Lana, it's so wonderful to have you here today.

SPEAKER_05 3:12

I am so honored to be here. Thank you both so much. I'm excited.

Linda 3:17

Well, thank you for being such a friend of the show, too, Lana.

unknown 3:20

Yeah.

Linda 3:20

Like you've been one of our biggest supporters. So thank you.

SPEAKER_05 3:23

Yeah. Oh, it's it is a joy. So I'm I'm thrilled.

Harbor Hopping As A Risk Strategy

Linda 3:28

Yay! Okay, so today we're gonna do a like 2.0. I was like thinking about it. It's like risk 2.0. So one of our most popular episodes last season was the last one in the season, which talks about embracing risk. And it really felt like that was touching upon a nerve. It touched upon a nerve within Laura and I when we were talking about it in terms of our podcast and how we want to grow a woman uncaged and what that looks like and all the feelings that that brought up, and all the inherent anxieties and fears and memories and so many things. And so Lana kindly reached out and was like, hey, I want I would love to chat about this with you guys a little bit more about, you know, some different approaches to risk and visibility. Yes. And so the kind of the impetus or one of the main metaphors that drove our initial conversation was the one that uh ships are safe in harbor, but that is not what ships are made for. And so Laura and I, when we had originally spoke about it, we're like, well, we've we've been in harbor and now we're going out to sea.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

And there was a lot, there was a lot of feelings that were coming up around sailing out into the clear blue ocean. And Lana, I would love to start with you around like what what did you say?

Linda 4:57

There was something about like another option that we had not seen that I think is really um a potent way of looking at this.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

So let's start there. That sounds good.

SPEAKER_05 5:09

Yeah, yeah. And I I really appreciate you guys even uh taking my call when I was like, I listened to the podcast and reached out to Linda first, and then we the three of us had a conversation. But I think that, you know, what I heard, you know, I heard this um this desire, your desire to, you know, the why behind why you wanted to leave the harbor and go out to sea in terms of you know, we're having such important conversations and you wanted to bring more women into it. And we thought, you know, if this is a time where we need to involve more women in our conversation, and so I heard that, but also, you know, uh, you guys brought up all the fears that came with going out to sea, including like getting doxxed, getting bullied, you know, like family listening in, like all these things we didn't want. And so I I guess I heard in that, you know, like, well, there are other options. And, you know, so one thing that I posed was, you know, instead of going from your harbor, just straight out to sea, you know, have you considered going into another harbor? And and so, you know, this idea of, you know, where can we still be seen and be safe? Because we know that we're going into friendly waters, right? And so I think that was um, you know, pose that question and then you know, starting a conversation about like what would what would that look like? You know, what could some of those harbors be? Um, you know, really supporting the the themes of the you know, the show of you two and the conversations. And so I think that's how we that the those are one that was one thread that we we followed.

unknown 7:08

Yeah.

Linda 7:09

I just I just love Lana that you saw that and that you thought to reach out and share it with us. You didn't keep it to yourself, because both Linda and I had the same reaction, which was A, why didn't we see that? And B, how brilliant it was, you know, and I love just the way you kept the metaphor. And I also remember in that conversation, you also were asking us, like, have you gotten to know the fish in the harbor? We were like, no. I mean, a handful, a handful, sure. The people who reach out to us and talk to us regularly, but generally speaking, no. And that was also a really good question. Because it's so funny because Linda and I are not typically the kind of people who just sort of make giant leaps. We we really don't at all. And but we were that's what we were doing. We were thinking about this is this giant leap. And we didn't even ask ourselves, are there any steps in between? Are there any, is there anything here that we haven't already explored? Um so I just love that you stepped in to say, hey guys, I have some thoughts. Yeah, I love that too, because it felt like and it kind of pains me to say this given the our whole topic of our podcast, but it kind of felt like the old masculine patriarchal version of risk taking was kind of what we were envisioning in our head was like feel the fair and do it anyway, like just grin and bear it, like go out to sea. And that it had to be this mass production kind of thing, like a fire hose rather than the version of harbor hopping, I think was the term that you used, Lada, felt so different. Like it felt much more feminine, it felt um gentler. I think it felt like a way that felt actually when you said it without realizing it, I was like, oh, that feels so much more natural than than this other version of like just just go out and like you, it's either you're in the harbor or you're not. It's kind of that either-or thinking, also that it's all or nothing. You're either in the harbor and you're safe or you're out to sea, and best of luck to you, kids. You know, it's like good luck out there. And here's this other option that it's like, oh, there might be some sailing involved. There's still gonna be some uncharted territory, but then you're going to another harbor. And I love that you brought up too, Laura, the getting to know the fish in the harbor. It's like, oh, there's so many rich, again, more feminine relationship-building activities that feel so much more nourishing than whatever this other version was that at least I was envisioning when we were saying that. Yeah, well, I also think it's in keeping with the web that you and I talk about all the time, Linda. It's like reaching out to our web, finding out who's there, um, looking for those harbors. And it just also made me think about I didn't go back and re-listen to the episode, but I don't think we talked about this, but about ways to cushion risk. Like, I don't want to say make it safe necessarily, but I think that's what Lana brought to us. And so it'd be worth even now talking a little bit more about generally speaking, like what other ways can we make it easier to take risks? Like, you know, reaching out to people who can support you and while you're doing so is one thing. What what other thoughts? And Lana, I don't know if you have anything along those lines that you'd like to share, because you've been thinking about this along those lines before we got there.

SPEAKER_05 10:38

Yeah, I'd say um, I mean, I guess the word that comes to mind is mitigate risk. And and yeah, I think Linda, as you said, like, you know, and I think I did hear you guys say it in the episode, how do we make this smaller? Um, but it was more like a rhetorical question. Uh and yeah, I think what the harbor hopping is a form of mitigating risk is that it's also something that's fun. Like instead of thinking about this like cringy, like, you know, kind of like forcing ourselves to do something because we quote, have to, you know, that sort of more exploratory, like harbor hopping is exploratory, right? Because we're like, ooh, it's an adventure, um, scary slash exciting. Uh and so I guess, you know, I'd say in answer to your question, like it's a mindset, right? Part of it. And yeah, experimentation, you know, if we think about lowering the risk, like this all or nothing thing where it's like, oh, you know, it's like maybe we'll just do it as a pilot. Like, you know, that feels like low risk and fun, you know, or like lower the stakes. Um, like, you know, that's that's one thing. And I guess, you know, getting to know the fishes in the harbor where you're swimming was also a way to say, you know, instead of broadening, can we deepen? Like, have we looked at that as a way to explore? Um, and so you know, it's just putting these different lenses on it.

Mitigate Risk Without Armoring Up

Linda 12:21

Yeah, me too. And also it feels like there is something that you said, Lana, that it's like if it requires us to armor up in order to do it, then maybe that's maybe that risk is too big, or maybe like it's too much for our nervous system to uh be able to integrate without going into fight or flight or kind of freeze. It's like we want to be in uh in the space where we can be in curiosity and openness and play. You know, when you said like it's fun, like there's an energy of play and experimentation, and it's like if we start to have to armor up to do it, whatever those risks are that we might be looking at in our lives, whether it's in our business, our work, our voice, just reaching out to a friend, like wherever our listeners, like wherever this might be landing in you, it's like, does it require me to armor up? And if so, is there another way that wouldn't? And I think that kind of goes to what you were saying, Laura. Like, what are the ways that we can also mitigate those things, like having support uh from other people, um, you know, like reaching out. I think having the the web, having a group of women or human beings that we can do it together with that can support us on the journey. I think that makes it feel more doable also as we it's like expanding the comfort zone instead of just like skyrocketing past it. And then being like, oop, this was too much. And then we're like go back to the comfort zone and stay there for the next five years because we're like uh not doing that again. That's the thing I was just thinking about is it's just not sustainable to make those giant leaps, you know. And one of the things I love, excuse me, about Lana reaching out to us is that that was the web in action.

unknown 14:12

Yeah.

Linda 14:12

She's like, oh, I have some thoughts that might be supportive.

SPEAKER_04 14:15

Yes.

Linda 14:16

You know, it's like I really love that.

unknown 14:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:20

Yeah. And I think part of, you know, what I really appreciate about you even asking the question out loud, right? Sharing the conversation the two of you are having with group is sort of, you know, the risk of being witnessed, right? You're you're saying, like, oh, this is something we're thinking about and talking about, and then receiving right that um like feedback, right? The mirror like back to you. Because I think part of you know, what I was a good opportunity for me to like love bomb you guys and say, like, oh, these are all the reasons why I love listening to your show, and I'm just one fish. Like, and you know, one thing that I said that I love listening to is, you know, hearing your friendship. And so, like, as much as you're talking about these topics, that I, you know, I really appreciate, but I also appreciate hearing, you know, even the um the fabric, it's like the texture of you guys laughing on top of each other or like Linda's like snarful googling, or I don't even know what it's called.

Linda 15:33

Nobody knows what it's called.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

I was like, I don't know what that is, but I can imagine that yes, it happens.

SPEAKER_05 15:39

But you know, that makes it it makes it really fun. And they said, you know, if we maybe I'm not the only one, like maybe this is about, you know, midlife female friendship, you know, as like maybe that's a thread, like maybe those are the conversations and harbors that um that you can, you know, swim in also. But part of it is just asking the question, like, why do why why are we all in this harbor? What do we have in common? Um, and maybe what are what are things that we don't have in common and and explore that too.

Linda 16:20

I love that.

SPEAKER_04 16:21

Me too.

One Conversation At A Time

Linda 16:24

I think related to that, Lana, could you speak a little bit to how you've been growing Pragmagical? Because when you told us, I I really loved the way you talked about that. And I want to put another plug in for it, by the way. I think it's beautiful. I've just I'm I'm a new reader to it, but everything I've read so far I've really loved.

SPEAKER_05 16:40

Yeah, I mean, I think um, you know, pragmagical is a part of my own, I guess, becoming, you know, it's a part of me um writing and sharing about my own experience. And a lot of the the meta theme of Pragmagical is about navigating life transitions. And so, you know, I've been in a period what I call the messy middle. I'm sure I know both of you ladies can relate, where, you know, a a chapter has ended and you don't know what the next chapter is gonna be. And um, you know, and so pragmatical is sort of the lens in which I've been, you know, navigating this period where you know that being totally practical, like you can't think your way through it, right? We can't like know the answer and just work on it, which is really frustrating, but sort of turning it all over to the universe is not the answer either. I think you guys talked about that when you you know spoke about surrender um and other themes. So pragmatical is about holding that tension. Like, how do we hold that tension between what's practical and what's possible? You know, how can we be pragmatic but still live, you know, go for our biggest dream, dreams? And so um, yeah, I guess in terms of how I've been growing the newsletter, it's really um one conversation at a time in a way, and really challenging myself to um kind of dance with that fear of not being ready, uh not being ready to talk, you know, talk about what I'm doing and going with the best of what I have at that moment and still uh having conversations where it resonates.

Linda 18:43

And and then uh yeah, so I guess I don't know if that's what you were thinking, Laura, when you were saying like Yeah, no, I I loved what you said about how you're like you're trying challenging yourself to at least have one conversation a week, I think is what you'd said before. Is that right?

SPEAKER_05 19:00

Yeah, I mean sometimes I yeah, I mean minimum.

Linda 19:06

Yeah, and I just I love that because it's not, you know, what we tend to hear about is you get on Instagram and you go viral and it's this big thing. And I love that it's it just feels so fitting to what we were talking about. I love that you're doing this in your own way, and it may not be completely comfortable, but it's a medium that works for you, and you're having those conversations. And I I really love to, it's not the feel the fear and do it anyway, it's feel not ready and have the conversation anyway, which I really love that.

unknown 19:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:38

Yeah, I'd say it's definitely um much more relational. And and yeah, I think that's that was part of my our conversation about embracing risk. I mean, basically the open sea is social media, right? The open sea is what is exactly that, that's sort of like, you know, the shouting into the void, but also it's not just the void, it's like what what might come out of the void to get you. And so, you know, I'm I sort of have my own, I I don't want to go that way. So like um, even if it's one-to-one versus one to many, I would rather uh, you know, I believe in the one-to-one or and the one to small.

SPEAKER_04 20:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:25

Um, and I I do not have a lot of faith in not to say not have faith, but it's not something that will work for me.

Linda 20:33

Yeah, yeah. I think that's really important too, to acknowledge that piece of it. It's like it's a very personal decision for how to grow something. And I love the discernment there too, right? Like that sense of embracing, like there is vulnerability and inherent risk in having the one-to-one conversation and inviting somebody into it. For in some ways, I feel like that is more vulnerable and risky to many people than doing a post on social media, blasting it out, and then an hour later be like, anyone, anyone, Bueller, anyone see it, anyone like it? You know, like that kind of thing. And so it's also that it is that embracing risk is not a one size fits all. And the risks that we might be called to or that life might be calling us to can be different for each one of us and in different seasons of our lives. Yeah, which oh my god, this begs a question. What risks are you being called to in addition? Like, what are or what risks are life calling both of you to, either of you, whoever wants to respond? Like, what what comes up in this conversation around like what are some of these areas that are an active, like it's a wrestle. I'm shimmying my shoulders instead. I love that. Do you want to respond first? No.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

I love the honest answer. Negative.

From Money Coaching To Liberation

Linda 22:08

Well, for me, it's definitely something that's grown out of filling the mastermind. You know, I it's been so interesting because we Carrie and I decided not to put it out publicly, at least at first, but just to reach out to people that we knew and to start kind of what you've been doing, Lana, having conversations with people and inviting people in. And then toward the end, we opened it up to fill the last couple of seats. And we still have a couple of seats left if somebody's interested. I'll put the link in the show notes. But at part of those conversations, like it's a much slower way to grow something, but it's also been a bit of an edge for me too, just to have to articulate over and over and over again the work that I'm doing. And it's evolving. And it's like evolving in real time. And so as Linda knows, I've been moving away from just coaching money. Um, I still love to talk about money. That has not changed, but I really, really am enjoying talking with women about liberation in broader terms, and particularly around breaking out of people pleasing and all the ways in which we keep ourselves small and not we don't actually embrace who we are at deeper levels. There are so many ways in which I watch women doing that. And it's one of the reasons it's been on my radar for a long time is it does get in the way of women earning money, but it goes beyond that in so many ways. And the other piece, which I have not shared here, is that I realized after a former client recommended a book to me about narcissism, and it's a really good book. I was reading it and I was like, wow, this is amazing. I was thinking about clients I've had recently. I realized the last six clients that I had were all daughters of narcissistic parents. And I that was shocking to me. I had not recognized it until I was reading the book. Um, and it's just it's made me think about that also as an aspect of the work. And the thing that happens when you have a narcissistic parent is you're not mirrored, like what you were talking about about mirroring earlier, Alana. You don't experience mirroring. You you the parent is constantly projecting onto you. And so it's very hard to develop a sense of self. And so, and I'm getting all shivery just talking about it now. When I like made that connection, I was like, that's what I've been doing with these women. I just didn't, I was doing it through the lens of money, and I didn't recognize what the root causes were. And you know, that just has me thinking about my work in a whole new direction. And the reason it feels edgy is because I'm known for the money part. You know, my substack is called Good With Money, and it's easy to say, and people know it, and it's grown beautifully over the last couple of years without me doing it much at all. So it's like, oh man, do I have to leave this harbor and go into another one?

SPEAKER_01 25:11

But my sense is that that harbor might have gotten a little small. It's yeah, yeah. It might feel a little small for you.

Linda 25:19

Yeah, especially with this new recognition. So anyway, that's my answer. Lana, do you have thoughts? Anything you want to share?

SPEAKER_05 25:27

No, I just think that's an uh what an amazing reflection on and just sort of how you kind of stumbled into that, you know, reading this book and then thinking about your clients and seeing the pattern. And um, and yeah, I can see, I can hear also like kind of that edge, like that excitement that you and this like, wait, something's happening, like kind of this tingle, like wait.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Well, it's a funny feeling to realize it was already happening. I just hadn't put it together.

Linda 26:02

Like, oh, that's what I was doing this whole time. Yeah, the universe is like, okay, let's send her a book, maybe she'll get it.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

You know, like it's like your harbor has been very deep. Like it's like it might have been like you've been seeing the top of it, and it's like, oh, this one goes real deep. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:23

Yeah, and for what it's worth, I do think it's uh, you know, this what we're talking about in terms of the witnessing and the mirroring. Um, it's really mattering, you know, it's like, and I think that there will there is and there will be more need for that. You know, it's it's like the last week's conversation about AI, you know. So like that is the consequence of, you know, AI is not witnessing, you know, your LLM is not necessarily witnessing you. Maybe it is in like kind of a like a junk food kind of way, but not in this like deep, satisfying way. And so um, I think, you know, I think there's a lot of value in that and a lot of need.

Linda 27:14

I think so too. I also think that our culture is not moving in a direction that will cause less narcissism. You know, I mean, I think it's sadly, you know, as much as it's become one of those labels that gets thrown around a lot, unfortunately, it seems to be true that there is more narcissism in our culture. And so just understanding that, but also figuring out how does a person the only word I can think of right now is recover, but really it's more like how can a person bloom even when she's been raised in that environment? How can you develop a self, especially as an adult? Such a juicy question. And we need more of that, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a question I've been asking myself for a while because I've been sitting with these women and realizing that's what they need. I just hadn't put the clause together. I hadn't put the whole thing together. Yeah, so I love

The Fool Card And Trying On Selves

Linda 28:22

that. Okay, I can share about this law and I have not shared this with you, but as a tarot person, you'll understand. So I had a um a therapy session earlier this week, and my therapist pulled cards for me before I got there. And the card that she pulled, so she I think she was pulling from a whole deck, pulled two major arcanas. And the card that she was like, one is what you're moving toward, and one is what you're letting go of. And the one that I was moving toward was the fool, and the one that I was letting go of was the chariot.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

And I was like, Lana's face is exactly how mine was when you told me. Interesting. Yeah, and to me, a little spot on there.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

I'm like, are you sure you pulled those or did you like go and sort through the bed?

Linda 29:07

Um, but it was, I feel like it's really kind of pertinent this conversation on risk, because to me, like the chariot is very much like holding, like gripping tight to the reins of the two animals that are driving the chariot and trying really hard to keep them under control, like re-exerting a lot of willpower. And the fool is like dancing into the unknown of life. And I would love to have more of the fool energy. And I feel like the risk that is kind of calling to me, whether it's from the outside world or from within my own soul, is to bring in more of that fool energy. And it's been so enlivening to think like, what if there is this fool in me that just hasn't gotten to express itself yet? Because Laura was like, I mean, you're probably pretty measured in your decisions. Like, you know, it's like, yes, I am. I'm pretty risk intolerant. You know, like my husband is much more comfortable with risk than I am. But it's also this like, maybe my husband has been more comfortable with risk than how I have been. But it's like, again, this sense of like making it my identity, like how I relate to risk becomes a fixed identity rather than something that can move and shift and be dynamic and responses to the circumstances of my life and like what's happening within me. And that's fascinating because it's like, well, who am I without the control and the measuredness, or at least as much of it? If I can let go of the reins, quite literally in this case, just a little bit, right? Like to me, that is a risk that feels juicy and intriguing. And I have no idea what it's gonna look like necessarily yet, but just embracing and asking that question of like the risk of not knowing exactly who I am and being enlivened by that question instead of being like my last year's question of like, what am I doing with my life? What am I doing with my life? Which was not an enlivening question at all. This one feels like it's like, who am I? Like, who would I be if the fool got to come to the forefront for a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 31:40

I have no idea.

SPEAKER_05 31:44

That's amazing. And is there a certain area in your life that you want to apply this to? Or are you just thinking, you know, like in your day-to-day, you want to bring this full energy in?

Linda 31:55

Or is there like a I would say a little bit of everywhere. I would say, you know, in my in my day-to-day, I was also listening to uh an interview or a spoken word by John O'Donahue where he was talking about how familiarity is like deadening to the soul. And when we become too familiar with ourselves or too familiar with one another, we lose the spark of curiosity and growth because we just take it for granted. Like we're like, we know this place. And so it feels like there's even the fool is like, you know, I'm living in the place where I grew up for most of my life. It is the suburbs. Like, I have my very like normal routes that I take to go to the store or to go get Ursa pet food or you know, whatever it is. It's like the fool energy will be like, I've never been to this area. Like, let's drive over there and see what we discover. And, you know, so even in something small like that, or trying new things, or you know, reaching out to somebody that I'm like, oh, I'd love to go get coffee with you, even though I don't know you very well, you know, like approaching a little bit more of that spontaneity, that newness, that like I'm moving into life more rather than this, like, I am sheltering myself from the horrendousness that's happening.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Which you know might have been true a little bit over the last few years.

Linda 33:25

I think you just described my last couple of years. Your fool energy? Yeah, I mean, I know. I mean, I really shook it up. And you know, the funny thing is like I would run into people I hadn't seen in a while, and they'd be like, What the heck did you do? You look you look younger, you look happy, like what's going on? And it's like shook everything up. Like moved somewhere I didn't know anybody and just you know, started over. And I'll everything was new and different and scary and wild. But yeah, I mean, I've a lot of what you just said, Linda, just seems so apt to what I've experienced over the last couple of years.

unknown 34:04

Yeah.

Linda 34:04

Settling, settling in more now, but you know. Yeah. It's like, and the question becomes like, how do I bring that in without, you know, maybe it's not the full life upheaval or like a huge change. Maybe it is, who knows? But maybe it is also just more. It's like it feels so enlivening. And I think that's what people were seeing in you and in your spirit and your body and your face, like you were like alive and radiant. You know, it's like, oh, and I think, at least for myself, I'm like, oh, I I want I want more of that. It's like the I'll have what she's having. Yeah, even I mean, telling an older friend of my parents that I was getting divorced at a party, and he was like, Well, you're glowing, so I guess it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

He said it was so funny. Like, I don't really approve of that, but you look great, so it must be all right. You look really happy.

SPEAKER_05 35:06

I mean, I think you know, two things come to mind with this, Linda, and you're right. I feel like could the therapist have picked the better cards for this? I don't know. Like, but one is, you know, even going back to our previous conversation, like what would this look like to be to be fun, you know, permission to have like a lot of fun, you know, even thinking about like um your appearance, right? Like, are there um like is there a hairstyle you've always wanted to try, but you felt like it was out of reach for you, or you know, like a style, like I don't know if we've talked about this, but like I started renting clothes. So like you can rent outfits as a way non-committal, try on like new, you know, sort of personas, right? That's again like low risk, fun, exploratory. Whereas like, because I know a lot of times, like with you with like you know, deep thinkers, fuelers where go, we go inside out, but what would it look like to go outside in, right? And like try a thing on for size. That's something that that uh um came to mind. But the other one, um, you know, we can have structure, like maybe it's not a total abandonment of the chariot. Like there are things about holding the reins that could still work, like a sabbatical, right? We have it's a structure of a period of time, but within that time you can play. You kind of are like, you know, you kind of make your wish list of all the things you're gonna do while you're on sabbatical. Um, and so you know, maybe just kind of throwing out, like, you know, bringing in this full energy. Um, again, like it doesn't have to be all or non, right? It doesn't have to be like that's exactly wild abandoned.

Linda 37:10

That's exactly what Laura said to me. And I was like, no, I want wild abandoned, Laura.

SPEAKER_05 37:15

Maybe it's wild abandoned. Yeah.

Linda 37:18

I just think more white wine spritzers in Linda's pool. That's what I think.

SPEAKER_05 37:22

Yes, please come visit everyone. So yeah, I know in the um the this book that I I do recommend called um, I think it's called Oh my god, how can I recommend the book and not remember the name? The author Bruce, Bruce Piler, and I think it's uh it's about like life in the transitions, I think that's what it's called. But he says that you know, when you're navigating transition, that actually having structure is what can make it successful. And so he recommends like three specific types of structure. And so one is um you have boundaries, but then there's an open sandbox within. So that's one. Uh the second is a quest, right? So like you know, like could you apply full energy but you have a quest that's something you always wanted to do, and then you're working towards that, right? Like um, I don't know, a like walking the Camino or something, like you know, having a goal, sort of. And then the third is um like reps, like something that you do you challenge yourself kind of to do over and over again, and in that way, in that practice, uh it's also a way to kind of like get an approach using a structured approach to navigate a transition. So just kind of offering those ideas, and I don't know if those spark anything for you in terms of like ways to hold like that um to convert full energy into the physical world. So I don't know if that brings up anything for you.

Linda 39:22

I love the idea of renting clothed. One of my dear friends does that also, and I'm like, I should look into that because it's a great way of having no waste and not participating in like the whole fast fashion situation. And I love bringing in more of those like playful aspects again into identity, which is so can become so fixed, right? Our idea of who we are can become so fixed that I love the idea of just like, and it's funny because when I've been doing Koia recently, one of uh Rochelle's new like favorite sayings in Koya, she's like, try on this idea, try on this theme like an outfit. Like you're just trying it on like an outfit. And so I love that as almost a metaphor for risk taking in general. That is kind of what you were asking way back in the day, Laura, around like mitigating it, is like, oh, try it on like an outfit. It doesn't have to be this is now your life moving forward. Like I have gone from this thing to this thing. It's like, oh, let me just try on this energy and let me see how it feels, and then I can come back and like take it off, or I can try on a different identity or a different energy and see how it feels. And so it's like there is a it's risky, but there is like there's the reps in it because you're doing something, you're doing it over and over, you're trying on different things over and over, and it's not like you're getting stuck in needing to figure something out or get to an answer. It's like, oh, I'm just gonna see how this feels. Like it just feels like a more playful approach to risk in life.

Evolving Identities Without Becoming A Brand

Linda 41:04

Yeah, I love that. I also wonder about just thinking about letting things evolve, like not holding the reins so tightly that things can't evolve, like in their own natural way. Um, it makes you Linda and I are reading some books right now that we just started and we will be talking about on the podcast by Sarah Wilson. And one of the interesting things is like if you look at her, even just looking at her titles without reading your books, you can see how her life has changed over time and the areas of interest that she has taken a deep dive into. And I love that nobody hopefully said to her, Well, you've written a book about being sugar-free. Now that's that's your identity now. Like maybe the next one should be about fat-free or about alcohol-free or whatever, you know. It's like, but you know, it's like she went from that to anxiety to climate change and stress, and you know, it's like I just love that she has let her work evolve and hasn't been allowed herself to be pigeonholed because that's so much what happens. Yeah. She actually writes about that in uh this one wild and precious life, I think is what it's called. Hopefully. Um, but yeah, there's the part of it, what she describes is like she had, you know, she grew a huge business around the sugar-free product line. And I won't give it all away, but basically walked away from it in in entirety and donated a bunch of the money that was made. And like, because in part that she didn't want, she didn't want to be continuously tied to like something, like, she is very dedicated to her own evolution as a human being, as a writer, as a thinker. Um, and anything that isn't feel like it's in congruency anymore. She's like, okay, moving on. But yeah, I love that you brought that up because that's what I was thinking of too. It's like, and it's funny that that was the thing that I've really stuck out to me is this like, I love seeing the evolution, even just like I haven't read her first two books, but I read the the last one, and then we've now started her latest one, which is called I Eat the Stars. And that one was written, the previous one came out in 2021, so right on the heels of the COVID pandemic. So it was a very different time. Like you see how much has shifted in just those five years, and you also see how much of her own thinking around what is happening in the world has shifted along with it, right? It's like, oh, well, we're not where we were five years ago. Like there was these opportunities and on the heels of COVID of shutting everything down, and you know, all of a sudden huge industries kind of pairing back, consumption pairing back. And there I think there was a lot more hope then that, like, oh, we can carry this forward into something new. And it's like, oh no, consumption has just like come back with full, full swing now. And so it's like we're in a different place. And I just love that we get to see the growth and evolution of a human being also in her in her work, in her body of work as it shifts, which it sounds like is also very um in live with what you were just saying before. I know. I was thinking about that too. Well, and I love that she she's had to let go of identities along the way. There's no way she could have done it otherwise. Um, and so much of what happens, especially because our lives are more public than ever, is that we get tied down to these identities or thinking like we have to have a consistent presence in our lives. And I don't believe that's true at all, especially when we're living longer than people have in the past. It's kind of impossible, honestly. I think it's artificial.

unknown 44:47

Yeah.

Linda 44:48

I think it goes back to our treating ourselves as brands. Sorry, go ahead, Lars.

SPEAKER_05 44:53

No, I'd say that that's, you know, probably the where I am also in terms of this like risk conversation and have been thinking about, you know, as I'm like thinking about navigating life transitions and the messy middle and really the identity loss um and the new identities becoming is you know, I think one that I um I feel I just haven't quite figured out how to articulate it where I am with it. But it's somewhere I can it what you're saying, Laura, about what you're doing really resonates with me, but all Linda also, that I feel I'm you know, um either holding on, like holding on to some, and I'm not sure, you know, I'm sort of like, do I let this one go? Do I keep it? Uh and I have, you know, new ones blooming. Um, especially, you know, there's identities related to place. Like I was lived in New York City for a long time, and when I let that go, that was like a huge, I still have dreams when I'm like in New York and I'm like, you know, I'm confused, like I'm disoriented. Like, where am I? Um but you know, uh a place-based identity, like my career-based identity is in flux. My uh and you know, impacts friendships, right? What are the things that we have in common? Um, we might no longer have those things in common. So are we still friends like and new friends who don't know any of your background? And and so, you know, I think all of that it's um there's like a lot in there. And so there's some risk, I just don't know how to name it.

Linda 46:51

But yeah, no, I think it's happening. That's that's huge. And I think place and identity, yeah, I've experienced a lot of that as well. Something I don't really hear talked about very often, but it's I've absolutely experienced that. Because I think in off, like at least in my experience, when I've moved, there's also it's like a big permission slip to like rip off the old identity and like try on the new one. And then at some point you're like, but now there's all these different like identities that are tied to different places or groups of people or times in our lives, and like beginning to how do we weave them together if we want to do that? Like, you know, what or do we want to let go of them or do we want to weave them together? It's like I remember saying something to um someone that I met through Tad. So in you know, kind of in the more coaching context of like, I'm a wise woman person, and I think I said it's hot as a fucking ball sack. And she was like, What?

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Because I think it was like that is actually part of who I am. She doesn't know you very well or she doesn't know that you say it, because you say it all the time. Because I know you very well now, right?

Linda 48:08

But it's like it takes time for those pieces to come forth, you know? And I think that I there is I feel like there's such an interesting, interesting dynamic that you just kind of like feel like we could talk about that for a while, Lana, is that yeah, the place-based identity and how these things get interwoven and the shifts that as we move and as we change in what we're doing and how we are and bringing more of ourselves to the world, you know, like and the everlasting question of like, oh, is this me like performing something, or is this like me exploring some intrinsic part of who I am? Like, I don't, yeah. So many questions. So many questions. And I'll just say one more thing about that, and then we should wrap up. But um, for me, like leaving Ithaca, where you know, my beloved Ithaca, where I was for 20 years when I left my marriage, one of the benefits of that, and I was aware of it when I was doing it, was not running it, because it's such a small town, not running into people who'd be like, What happened? And like having to explain over and over and over while I was still processing for myself. So one of the joys of going somewhere else where nobody knew my story at all was not having to answer that question and being allowed to answer it for myself first before having to talk about it publicly with other people. And that made a huge difference for me because there was no performance, there was no like grappling, there was no like thinking about my image, there was none of that. It was just me processing on my own without an audience, and I'm very grateful I had that experience. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

It reminds me of you could make this place beautiful, where she answers the questions that people have about her divorce and things, and she's like, here's everything I could say, and then it's like I said, Yeah, it's going fine. Yes. Here's the litany of things I could share with you, and I choose not to.

Linda 50:08

Yes. Yes.

Join The Listener Salons

Linda 50:10

Well, as we're wrapping up, I want to share with our audience that some of these themes that we've been talking about here about, you know, getting to know the fish in our harbor and bringing more women into this conversation that Linda and I have been noodling on that, and we've decided to open up an opportunity. We're calling them salons, where we bring in some of our listeners to talk about a topic together, small group. Uh, we're having one this week, our first one this week, that we did not make public. It's been invitation only. We decided to invite people who are regularly in touch with us on the show. Um, but we would love to know if our audience members are interested in joining us for a salon. If you are, you can get on the wait list by emailing us at womanuncagedpodcast at gmail.com and that's woman singular. I know that I've had people say, I sent you an email, and you and I didn't get it because they said women. So it's womanuncagedpodcast at gmail.com. Put wait list in the subject line, and we will put you on the list and then we'll let you know when we're having our next one and what the topics will be. You could choose one that's of interest to you. But we would love to get to know our listeners better. We'd love to get to know the fish in our harbor and uh and have conversations with you. So well, thank you so much, Lana, for for coming on the Woman Education Podcast. It was such a beautiful conversation. And I just, yeah, like Laura said, so appreciative that I feel like there is that wise woman energy that like reaches out and is like, I'd like to talk about this, you know. Like I love that you went with that impulse. Yeah, and I would just love to know if you have any closing thoughts on this topic that you'd like to share before we wrap.

SPEAKER_05 51:51

Yeah, no, I think uh thanks so much for having me. This is this is really fun. I'm excited for this salon. And yeah, I think, you know, what's really again, like beautiful about you know, you both and and the show and how you do it, even the fact that you don't edit the show, which I think is like amazing, is it's very meta, right? This is what I was telling Linda before the show that I was like, I'm gonna go out on a show about embracing risk, and there's no script. Like no edits.

Linda 52:27

No ads, yes, no outline.

SPEAKER_05 52:30

So you I think you know, my closing thoughts are you're really you walk the walk, and I think um it's a pleasure to to have joined even for a couple of steps.

Linda 52:43

So thank you so much. Thank you so much, Lana.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Thank you. All right, until next time.