Woman Uncaged
In these unfiltered, unedited conversations, Linda Katz and Laura Gates-Lupton get real about what it means to live full, joyous, and meaningful lives in a culture that continues to silence, shrink, and sideline women.
Laura and Linda call out the ways patriarchy disguises systemic problems as personal failings, and they refuse to let women carry that lie alone. They question, illuminate, and lay bare the forces that shape women’s lives, while lifting up the possibility of something different.
With candor, humor, and plenty of personal stories, they invite women to stop hating themselves, reclaim their power, and opt out of the narratives that were never theirs to begin with.
Woman Uncaged
Are We Outsourcing Our Wisdom to AI?
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Send us a text. We'd love to hear from you!
In this latest episode, Laura and Linda dig into what it looks like when women outsource their wisdom, from the old “father knows best” conditioning to the new habit of letting AI chatbots tell us what to think, feel, and do.
We get honest about why this is happening now. People are lonelier, therapy can be expensive and hard to access, and AI is designed to be agreeable and engaging. But that ease comes with a cost. We talk about why real healing happens in human relationships, why growth needs nuance and sometimes conflict, and how “attachment hacking” can pull us away from vulnerability and self trust.
At the same time, we’re not anti-tech (these show notes are written with the help of AI after all!). We share a practical middle path: using AI for brainstorming, research, and logistics while refusing to hand it your emotional life or your major decisions.
Wherever you stand on AI in your life, we'd love to hear from you! And if you enjoy these conversations, subscribe to Woman Uncaged, share this with a friend who’s pondering the role of AI in her life, and leave a review so more listeners can find us.
Laura's Mastermind: https://www.carriebradley.com/mastermind
~Linda's book: Homecoming: One Woman's Story of Dismantling Her Inner Cage and Freeing Her Wild Feminine Soul
~Laura's Monday Money Missives: https://goodwithmoney.substack.com/
~Linda's Wild Woman in the Burbs: https://lindasewalliuskatz.substack.com/
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Email us: womanuncagedpodcast@gmail.com. We love hearing from you!
Welcome And Why We’re Here
LindaOkay. Hello everyone and welcome to Woman Uncaged. I am Laura Gates Lepton and I am here with my amazing beloved bestie Linda Katz. As usual. We're so excited to be here today. We're so excited to be here today and to be together and just to talk about some really fun things. And if you are stumbling into Woman on Cage for the first time, let me tell you a little bit about Linda. She is an amazing writer. She is the author of the book Homecoming, which I highly recommend. If you haven't read it, get it from Amazon. It is absolutely beautiful. Her writing is lyrical, it's gorgeous, it's deep. And she writes about her own experience and her work, which is both are fascinating. But I really love the way the book flows between her personal experience and her professional experience and the way she views the world, especially for women at midlife, which I'm assuming if you're listening to this, you probably fall in that category because we do too. Linda is so articulate and deep and wise. It shows in the book, but it shows here too. She's also funny and smart and yeah, all the things. She's a beautifully well-rounded person, and she's a wonderful, extraordinary friend. I'm so lucky to call her one of my very best friends. Just absolutely could kiss Tad Hargrave for introducing us to each other back in 2020 because it has been one of the richest relationships in my life. And I'm very grateful for it. And I'm so glad to be here with you today, Linda. Aw, thank you, Laura. You've started by making me very teary-eyed, and now I have to like compose myself. And I'm here with my beloved and dear friend, Miss Laura Gates Lupton. And I agree we could do a dual kiss on the cheek for Tad. I can't believe it's already been six years, and at the same time, it also feels like we've known each other much longer. Forever. Yeah. Um, I think because of the depth of our friendship. And I mean, so many of the things that Laura said about me, the very, very kind things I could just literally say ditto. I mean, Laura is such a wonderful, open-hearted, warm, caring, whip smart, practical, intuitive human being that I'm so lucky to have in my life as a dear friend. I mean, Laura is also the whole package. You know, like I think a lot of times we can tend to like skew one way or the other. And like, I feel like you do such a beautiful job of integrating all these different aspects of who you are and consistently growing. I think if that's one thing that for those of you who may be new to the podcast or newer to the podcast, if you listen to these episodes, you'll hear just the growth-oriented way of looking at life that Laura has, the way that she applies it to her own life, the way that she's willing to take risks and do new things and continue to grow as a woman. I think that's so freaking inspiring and it consistently inspires me. And I know that it's going to inspire and probably has inspired our listeners who have been following along on your journey. And if you want more of Laura, there's a few different ways that you can find her on the interwebs. You can first find her on the Good With Money Substack. Uh, you should also know that my memoir became infinitely better uh homecoming because Laura was my editor. So if you're a woman who is practicing on putting her voice into the world through the written word, and you need somebody who can again, it's that whole package, like be able to hold you as a human and not you don't come out the other side like never wanting to write again, which I think happens to a lot of people when they have an editor, sadly. Um and at the same time uses like her very keen eye and her knowledge of writing and literature to be able to pull the best book forth that's in there. So those are two things. And I think the mastermind, is that still open? Yes, yes, we still have a couple spots. Okay, so we will put the link to the mastermind for women who are ready to step into uh making more, making more money, having greater impact. I don't know if you want to say anything else about the mastermind before we dive in. Yeah, I would say that it's for women who, I mean, the whole goal is to become more resourced so that they can have more impact. And so it's for women who have, you know, a mission or something they really want to put out into the world, but they don't want to do it tired and exhausted and stressed. They want to do it resourced and fresh and energized. That's our goal. More of that, please. Oh my gosh. So we'll put all those, the the link to that mastermind in the show notes this week. So, and I think it starts next week, you see. It does, it does, but we're gonna hold the doors open as we have as long as we have a couple more spots for a couple more weeks. Okay, so get in there if that speaks to you. Um
Offers And Topic Framing
Lindayay. Okay, so to this week, what are we gonna be talking about? We are talking about how we as women have might have a tendency to outsource our wisdom and the ways that this can take shape in our lives, what it costs us, and what some other options might be. And this has been feeling particularly alive for both of us, I think, as we are navigating this new way that many are outsourcing their wisdom or their knowing, or you know, even being able to get clear on how they feel, what they think, which is through AI. Yes, through relationships with AI chatbots, and you know, having AI basically make large life decisions for us. And again, I think that AI is taking a spot that probably I would say that it in the past might have been held by men. Was thinking the same thing. A lot of times I think that, you know, from a patriarchal culture, we have been raised as women to not trust in our own capacity to make the important decisions in our lives. You know, that whole father knows best, father knows best, the man is the head of the household, like hey, make decisions. Exactly. It all starts, right? It's all the all the dudes are making the decisions, and so I think that there is something probably maybe comfortable or conditioned in looking for ways to outsource our own wisdom, our own knowing, our own decision making. And I fear that something vastly important is lost when we do that. What do you have to say about all this? I think so too. Um, we've been watching Freaks and Geeks. Have you seen Freaks and Geeks? I have not. And well, it's a show that's set in like I think it's like the 70s, yeah. And it's and the the one of the things that drives me crazy about it is
From Father Knows Best To AI
Lindathat all the for the main family in the story, all the decisions are made by the father. And so, you know, the wife's always saying, What do you think, dear? Or and the kids asked it, their dad. They don't even ask their mom about anything. They just ask dad. And so the mom's never, she's never expressing an opinion. Um, almost never. Occasionally she will. She'll say, Oh, honey, come on, you know, but but if the dad says no, it's no, even if the mom's like, you can tell she doesn't agree. And it and it drives me insane. But I think part of why it drives me crazy is that's how I was raised. You're like, this strikes a nerve. And now I am seeing this with AI with people around me that are and and something you said on uh we were boxing about this this morning a little bit, and something you said rang so true to me that people are also using it as kind of like a crutch, like saying, Oh, well, my I ran it through AI and AI said this. Instead of actually having a stand themselves, they're they're saying, Oh, well, AI kind of like you know, a long time ago, I had a friend who used to say, Oh, well, my husband won't let me.
unknownYes.
LindaYes, it becomes this, it can become like a crutch is a great word for it. I think it can hide a certain degree of passive aggressiveness, where it's like we don't want to own up to our own opinion. And so we might agree with what the AI says, and but it's better to say it as like, well, the AI said this, you know, my my AI instance. I put it into my AI instance, and this is what it said about the situation. And I find it just, I mean, for me personally, and I'm gonna get on my little judgy rant soap box here for a second, but it's like I find it absolutely horrifying. I find it horrifying that we are turning to computer models, that we are turning to digital machines that have no heart, that have no soul, that have been programmed by maniacs, basically tech billionaires, and we are replacing actual human relationships and thinking that it's a one-to-one replacement, or actually thinking that somehow the AI is better. And uh it really, I'm like, oh my gosh. And I feel like it's we've just come to this point after so many, many, many years of women being able to assert their own thinking, their own opinions, their own selves, and then in swoops, this freaking technology that we're just handing our power over to. And under the guise that it's helping us to get clear on what we actually think. Yeah, and I don't think that's true at all. I don't think it is either. I just it's, you know, I sent Laura a video as we were um before we jumped on today
AI Therapy And Relationship Loss
Lindabecause I saw it was a man, I think it well, I'll figure out what his name was and put it in the show notes. I think it was Dr. Chris Lee, but he was talking about uh, you know, using AI for therapy and how uh like what is lost in that process. That it's like, yes, we might have somebody who's very agreeable who parrots back our circumstances and our thoughts to us, but it doesn't actually offer any real healing because healing happens in the crucible of human relationships. There's also conflict in that crucible, they're always messy. But I think that AI is in part this retreat from vulnerability that we have already been seeing. And I'm like, uh it makes me really sad because I'm like, I want to know what women think, feel, what their opinions are, even if I don't fucking agree with them. Yeah, I'd rather they speak for themselves, not through the mouthpiece of their husband, not through the mouthpiece of the patriarchy, and not through the mouthpiece of Claude. Yes. You know, before you sent me that video, I was making a list earlier of I was trying to brainstorm some new things to write about, and I made a list of things that I think people need to know. And on the list, I wrote that coaching and therapy are all about the relationship that there's no value in either if there isn't a firm relationship to hold all of what's transpiring in the relation, you know, in the coaching or the in it. So I wrote that, and then you sent me that video, and I was like, see, this, exactly this. And I think it's also a failure. I think, you know, like there's the the judgy ranty part of me, and then there's also the more compassionate part where it's like, I think it's a failure on the other, you know, humans in our lives, or the failure of a system. Like I saw somebody had commented on that Instagram reel of the the therapist, like the in part this is due to insurance because therapy is ridiculously expensive and you know, out of the realm of possibility for many, many people to have in their regular repertoire. And that's a very real thing, too. It's like, but I don't think the answer is just to supplant the coach or the therapist with an AI. It's rather to be like, okay, well, how do we change this system? If that's the case and more people could use this and would want to, how do we make it so that it's actually more accessible rather than I'll just send you my AI version of me?
unknownRight. Right.
LindaSo it's five bucks a month. Coaches are doing now, two of the coaches I follow, Michael Neal and Ramit Sati, both have like I I forget what Ramitz is called, but um, but Michael's is my little Michael's, how he refers to it. It's like, you know, it's like this AI. And I'm just like, yeah, I don't think that's great. Um I want to say though, to be clear, I use AI. Um that I, you know, I don't use it for processing my personal feelings or anything like that, but I have used it. I like to use it as a brainstorming tool sometimes. Um, I love using it for research, trying to sometimes when I can't even figure out exactly the question I'm trying to ask, I like using it for that because it's it's useful because it reflects back what it thinks you're asking for. And then it's helpful to, you know, I also do that with humans. I enjoy that too, but sometimes humans aren't around and it's just helpful to type it in and to see what comes back. Um, I I've really enjoyed using it for local research here. Like, you know, I'm thinking of doing XYZ. Is where would I look for something like that? And it'll pop back, like, oh, you should look for this kind of group, or in Minneapolis, there's this, you know, or something. It's that's been really helpful. So it's more, it's like a more sophisticated search engine. So that's kind of how I use it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
LindaUm, but absolutely not using it to process my emotions or my relationships. Yeah. The human parts, the like it almost feels like using it as the search engine. It's like using it as a tool to deepen the connections of the local place where you're at. It's like it it, but not supplanting those and not, you know, coming and taking the place of that, but actually as a way to help you get further into where you are and back into the world with the people and with the place and that is the nature. That is absolutely true. However, I will say it tries to lure me into be in relationship with it. Oh, okay. Okay, you gotta tell me. So is this where the story comes in that you alluded to? Okay, Laura, like put this little like what's it called, a breadcrumb or you know, old tease into our boxer message. And she was like, I'm gonna save it for the podcast. So
When Chatbots Mimic Intimacy
LindaI'm I'm here on the edge of my seat. I want to hear this. So yeah. So um, as y'all know, I'm planning a wedding and I was in AI last weekend um because we're trying to do this wedding with for not a ton of money. I have some ideas of what I want to be like, but I don't want to spend $20,000. And when I researched, like how much does a budget wedding cost? It was something like $18,000. And I'm like, no, thank you. So anyway, I was brainstorming with AI how we might um do that. And it was for one thing, it kept saying, Um, you know, from what I know about the two of you, like this is very you, that kind of thing. But the other thing it said, I was talking about how we might structure a reception, and it said, I've been to some weddings where the speech the toasts went on for an hour. It said that no, what yeah, I'm not kidding. And I mean, and I heard I read it and I was like, I got chills. I was like freaked out because I'm like, no, no, no, no, you have never been to a wedding. No, you were not a you. Yeah. Yeah. But then it just made me think like, I've had clients where I've been concerned that they were getting sucked into AI and thinking it's a real relationship. In one case, truly, truly, that happened.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
LindaUm, thankfully, she kind of woke up and was like, I need to talk to you. Human. Yeah, like she said, I need a I need some one-to-one human interaction. I just realized what has been happening to me. Um, but when it does stuff like that, I can see why. Yeah. Yeah. You start, you forget over time because as it gets better and better, and it does, you know, if you're using the same chat bots, they start to get to quote unquote get to know you. It builds, you know, it takes in all this information. So it kind of has an image or whatever of who you are that it can then use to yeah, mirror back what you also what you want to hear. Yes. Which is what they do really well. I know. And it kept saying things like, um, I noticed that when you were talking about the place, you weren't talking about you wanted something to impress people, like I noticed that this is this is what's important to you, um, things like that. And I tried to just sort of ignore that. I'm just, I just want the information, but I can see where it would lure people in. Now, at the same time, yesterday I was trying to create an image for a workshop that Carrie and I are going to be teaching, Carrie being the person I'm leading the mastermind with, and it it did a great job of generating the image, except for it got our names under the wrong headshots.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
LindaAnd so I was like, no, no, no, I'm the one here, you know the red sweater, and Carrie's, and it could not get it right. It kept switching, it switched the photos, but it would switch the names again, or then it switched everything, but it had our descriptors wrong. You know, I it could not, I tried 10 times and it couldn't get it right. And so part of me was laughing because it's like, yeah, you really don't know me. You don't even know which one I am. Right. Yeah, which person is actually me. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And I think it's, you know, it comes at this time too. It's where people are more lonely than we've been in a long time. I think, in part as a, you know, trailing from the pandemic, where it was already starting to happen that way, but then, you know, through isolation of the pandemic and so many things moving online, it's like we've just supplanted the in real life life with a solely digital life. And then you get this thing that begins to take over and can easily become your primary relationship. And especially when it's trying to mimic a relationship. Yeah, it's doing it on purpose. I think that's the that's the really frightening part. Because I mean, in part, I'm like, okay, one, was it programmed that way? And two, is it just going rogue? Like, we don't even know at this point. I know. I mean, even now, just sitting here, I just got chills again. That when it said I've been to weddings where toasts went on for an hour, I was like, oh, you know, it's like, is it going rogue? Like, what's happening? You're like, I would have been like, have you now? Can you tell me one? Can you give me one example? Just explain. I was I was tempted to like start asking questions about that, but I just walked away. I was just like, no, I can't, I don't want to engage right now. Yeah. Because even doing that felt like it was keeping us. Somehow, yeah, somehow honoring it as a real entity when it's not. Yeah. And that's what it continuously tries to do is just to keep us engaged. You know, I think it's kind of um my friend Lana Price, who I think is is coming on the podcast next week. Soon. Yeah, very soon. Um, next week or the week thereafter. And she was saying, you know, it's basically like if social media hacked our attention, this is hacking our attachments, like this is attachment hacking. And I think that we've already suffered from a lot of lack of attachment. You know, I think our disconnection from nature, I've heard, you know, people refer to that as kind of the the primordial collective mother that as human beings, we are we need to be in contact with the natural world, that there's something and attachment to the natural world is important, and that's already been severed. And the natural world is raging about it right now. Yes, it's like there's a consequence because we're not that connected to her, and because of that, we're not caretaking her in the way that we should be, and it's out of control. Yeah, yeah, it's and so I feel like this is just this continual degradation, degradation and this move from what is natural, what is human, what is creaturely. You know, we talked about that word creaturely a few many episodes ago, you know, and and it's becoming supplanted by this digital machine-like technology approach that I'm like, ugh, I just I know likey. And I hate, and I really, yeah, it's the the outsourcing the wisdom piece to kind of come back to that. What do you feel are some of the I mean, we've kind of talked about it a little bit, but is there anything we haven't talked about that you foresee as what do we miss? What do we miss out on individually if we're doing that? Or what do we miss out on collectively when more and more, and in this particular case, I'm speaking about women, begin to outsource our wisdom now from from husbands to chat bots that are programmed by
Intuition Led Decisions That Worked
Lindaand large by men. I think some of my most, just speaking very personally, some of my most I don't even know what word to use, but like I gonna say beneficial but that's not even it but some of my like best decisions some of my best moves that I've made in life have come from my intuition and not from anybody else human or machine um you know and I I I can say two examples um one recent one was I was feeling really frustrated because my former spouse had said that you know we were gonna do a DIY divorce in New York State and I I tried I looked at the the easy instructions 17 pages that were so confusing and I I you know and I I'm a smart person you know I got through grad school like I'm not I'm not illiterate um but I could not figure it out I I read it over and I was so confusing I think they probably do that on purpose you know it's like they probably want you to hire attorneys and you know spend a lot of money in the courts but um I couldn't figure it out my former spouse is a retired attorney so he was like okay I'll do it but then he didn't do it so you know fast forward another year and I'm like okay I there's something I've got to figure this out and I was on a plane and I love I love flying in part for this reason. I can't read on planes because it makes me sick so I can't look at screens so you know what's there to do other than think look out the window you know sort of daydream a little bit I was on the plane and I was thinking there's got to be a way there has to be a way that doesn't involve attorneys it's we have an amicable split it's uncontested I don't want to get attorneys involved and I was just sort of noodling on it as it's flying and suddenly I thought oh I wonder if a paralegal could file could do this or help me with it help me with the process like understand it you know and it would cost less so when I as soon as I landed I Googled it and found a paralegal in New York that only does divorces. Amazing and so and I've been working with them like my divorce is about to be filed and thank goodness you know because I want to get on with my life um and it's been an awesome process and I feel like I just want to shout it from the rooftops because I think most people don't know that this is possible. It's costing me under a thousand dollars. Amazing and this just came from like nothing like it came from you it came from an idea that popped into your head yes yes and I had been on ai asking if it could help me file like does it understand the process for New York and it really like I didn't get good answers. And so and nowhere did has anyone in all my I've asked so many people I've posted in groups like has anybody done a DIY divorce can anybody offer any suggestions? Nobody suggested this wow so that's one of them and the other is meeting my partner you know it's when I just had this idea I was in Cincinnati living in Cincinnati and I was coming here to Minnesota for my daughter's graduation and I thought oh you know when I get there bumble's gonna show me a bunch of guys there and I might as well look now just for fun you know so I was like flipping through and his his was the only profile that caught my eye I kept looking at I looked at it probably 20 times and I was like finally I was like fuck it Lord just send him a message and I did and part of my hesitancy really was that I've had a strong feeling that this could actually be something and I wasn't that wasn't what I was looking for. So part of me was like ooh do you really want to go down this path? Yeah do you really have to but at the same time I kept being drawn back to the profile and I decided to listen to the nudge. Yeah you know and neither of those things came from other people or AI or books or anything. It was just from me. Yeah I can there are lots of others but those are just two recent examples. Well I love that you shared those too because I feel like the problem I think for with AI again is that because it has this propensity to just be agreeable because it wants to keep us engaged and deepen a relationship it's like there's times where like following our intuition is like this is the right answer for me at this moment in my life I'm I want to take this risk I want to expand out into the world. And then there are other times in our lives that maybe like it's nice to have a friend that you talk about who's like well have you thought about this you know because we all have those moments where we can wax from the things that are really good on paper and have no life to them to the other end of the spectrum where it's like we're flying by the seat of our pants and you know like there might be other ways that we can walk a middle path but no the AI will not give you that. It'll just say yes good choice. This sounds so much like you I'm so glad you're following your intuition Laura you know even if it was like you're like I'm gonna go jump off this cliff that sounds wonderful if that's what your heart wants to do which it's actually done. It has it has it has coached people to commit suicide it's yeah it's it's not a person. It's not a person and even as it gets better and they work on those things it still isn't a person and it cannot offer those very human responses and guardrails and you know that that a that a wonderful friend can or somebody who really does know you. And yeah. And and who knows like when you get to know somebody well you start to see the patterns and like things you know like when we had we were in a mastermind together and one of our members kind of kept doing the same thing over and over again and we were all gently sort of saying well do you remember before when you did the it didn't quite work out so maybe you should think in a slightly different direction this time or maybe consider like what what did work in that relationship and and you know like bring that over here and what didn't work and think about the pitfalls and very gently just kind of try to open her mind to you know so she didn't create the same mistake over again. Yeah nuance nuance like AI is not going to be like I think you've gone down a path of delusion you know not in this particular case but that that I yeah or I've noticed you did this before. Yeah like you know like then this is that it didn't work out last time so maybe you need to try a different approach um it doesn't do that. However I when I have clients who are really into AI one of the things I I suggest that they do is prompt it to with a question like what do you see what do you see that I'm not seeing about myself what do you think my blind spots are um questions like that because it will answer. Yeah and especially when people are kind of smitten with it like I don't even know how to what other word to use because it's so flattering yeah you know and then they they're telling me oh yeah AI says I'm one of the five percent of people asking these kinds of questions you know like everybody says that to me so it's like it's saying that to everybody I think yeah um so I will say let's let's ask it why don't you get your AI out right now let's do it together you know let's ask it what your blind spots are let's ask it what it thinks that you're think that you're missing and what you know and people do it and then they're shocked because they're like oh oh this part I wasn't asking those kinds of questions yeah because it's it's eerily on target. Yeah yeah I love that it's also I feel like there's that you know the you know the what you were saying about the five percent it's we every human being wants to feel significant and wants to be seen and wants to be seen and again I think it comes back to this very strong lack of something that we have ceased being able to provide for one another the way that nature intended for a variety of reasons for the systems that we live in for how distracted we all are for how busy we all are for you know there's so many very justifiable reasons for it but it does really open up this pathway to yeah supplanting human relationships and listening for you know like listening for what is most true for within ourselves like working something out for ourselves instead of just turning to the AI in the same way that it's like you know and some people like to are more verbal processors or you know like would love to do that with like us. Yeah exactly with a friend you know like there is that but there's also you know like going to a journal and like writing it down and getting clear on like okay well this is what I feel and this is what I think before you ever engage with the technology. So again you don't have to outsource the knowledge of yourself and your relationships. I think that's what you just another way of saying what you said at the beginning of this call but that to me is where it feels like the greatest sorrow is is that we outsource the knowledge of who we are what we believe what we think what we feel that we're significant like we outsource that and then we outsource how to be in relationships which are just two really core aspects of what it means to be human. Yes in my opinion um and I'm like man I just feel like we're gonna end up it's like when you like there was a while a little while ago when like the new age thing was huge and like everyone was a starseed you know I was like oh my god are we gonna end up with like a million plus star seeds and everyone's like well I am this and you know I just no yeah no it's it's I think everything that you're saying is is spot on. I think it also pigeonholes people so like you tell it things and then it starts starts seeing you a certain way and it that's what it reflects back. So it isn't growth minded the way we are you know so the things that you were talking about earlier it's like it it's you're outsourcing that too but if you are a growth oriented person then you're not gonna get the same thing that you get in a human relationship. And human relationships are messy but that's part of where the growth comes from like without some degree of conflict or difference there's no growth. Yeah or vulnerability vulnerability yeah like really openly sharing I mean one of the things I love about our relationship is that I can come to you with every wacky idea I have and you're gonna listen to it. It's not you know it's like you don't make fun of me you don't you know you might ask a question or two or you might say well do you think like with especially in the age of AI that would be that would last very long not that this is drawing on an actual conversation. But you know it's like it's real though I can go to you and say it and there's there's so much more risk there to bring your wackiest ideas to another human. But there's also so much more joy to be heard and gently questioned or teased or validated or you know as opposed to this machine saying well I think that's a great idea and knowing you the way I do. But judging from all the weddings I've been to I think this sounds wonderful. You're like uh what freaking out now you're like I'm walking away I just imagine you're like shutting the laptop you're like okay I have to I have to walk away now piling some books on top of it so it can't escape. Yeah but I really think that for women especially for to be kept safe a lot of us were told to tamp down our intuition in one way or another you know um definitely true in my life that my family was not particularly happy when I would say things that turned out to be true. People wouldn't be like you don't know that stop talking about that um you know and so I think feel like our intuition is hard won in some ways as it is and then to outsource it to a machine to ask the machine like it's it's it's kind of like you know the Wizard of Oz like going talking to the man behind the curtain who turns out not to know much at all. But we think he does. And so we're asking it and when we've got so much more inside of us and with each other in relationship with each other in conversation and and talking things through with dear friends so much more valuable. Yeah and yeah I get that it's kind of new and exciting and it's it's fascinating to see what it can do and it changes regularly and so there's you know all of that is it is from a technological standpoint fascinating to me. Yeah at the same time that it's kind of terrifying. Yeah I agree I agree what do you what do you see in terms of like what we've lost or have how risking losing if there's something you wanted to say uh instead not
Information Without Wisdom Or Journey
Lindathat question that's fine but I love that question. Um I had a conversation with a dear friend of mine who really she enjoys using the AI chatbots quite a lot and she was like you know she loves to learn and it has so much information right I mean it has like all the information and she was saying how you know you can get before like to get this information like you know on I think it was Vedic astrology or something she was like you have to you would have to like hike up to like these mountains it would be this huge journey and pilgrimage that would take months that you would go and sit in front of this person and then she's like and now it's available with like the click of a button I can get all of this information on Vedic astrology and I was like that's true that that is true and I was like but my sense is that part of the wisdom that was acquired in that process was the journey of getting to the Vedic astrologer probably more than whatever that Mofo was saying you know like to me it's the wisdom the wisdom that comes through the lived experience and the the going on the journey itself rather than just getting the information. It's like who do we become in the journey to get the information and we have no journey to get it anymore. We have no journey to get any knowledge it's it's just available with the snap of a finger and I think it's going to widen this gap. And I think it already has and so many things like you know the internet like wonderful they're wonderful in certain senses but I do think we have an overabundance of quote unquote informational knowledge and a tremendous lack of actual wisdom with what to do with that knowledge. Yes and that's not a good place to be no it's not helping our emotional intelligence either it's not helping our emotion it's just you know like I think as human beings that amount of knowledge in our hands without the wisdom that comes along with it is not good. It does not result in good things usually um and I think that that's the piece where it's some of these more ancient ways of doing things of knowing of it's also it leaves this element of the mysterious to life of sometimes you know we have a dream and it's like well how the heck did that show up in my dream you know like and it it goes beyond knowledge and it it goes to something deeper and more interconnected and soulful and to see that replaced with just the gurgitation regurgitation of just endless information I yeah I'm not a fan. Yeah I know and you know like I said I like I AI for some things and so I have mixed feelings about it. Um but that's true of the internet for me too I I was in my 30s when I got online so I was you know early 30s like 30 or 31 um so I have I had a lot of decades where I'd had no internet and I remember very well what that life was like and some of it I miss. Yeah um some and some of you know I wouldn't go back. I wouldn't like if the internet went went away I it would be I don't know what we would do. Just even just banking. Like how do you do that without the internet in these days? But I still have mixed feelings about it because of what it has cost us. In terms of leisure time and um just connections with other people and just you know just the way we used to connect regularly with other people not even like the kinds of deep friendships but like neighbors and you know that kind of thing. Just even that it can tell you what's going to be in your mail that day. Like I used to love to go get the mail when I was a kid you know because it was like you never know what's gonna be there. And they're like I don't want to know yeah yeah exactly something fun. Yes you know it's just all those kinds of things that have just shifted and some of the joys of life are gone because of the internet. Yeah and um and that's it but I just but I keep wondering like we we're just I mean AI is so new that we don't know what joys of life are going to be gone. Yeah and and it does really concern me that especially because I think a lot of us really come into our full intuition in midlife not early in life and so for a lot of women who are entering midlife right now I'm worried that they're just gonna bypass all of that if they're using AI. Yeah you know and it's just such a a there's so much depth and richness to the internal experience that AI cannot possibly replace or enhance. I think that's part of the problem is people think that it's enhancing their internal experience and I just don't think so. Yeah it's not in my experience
Outsourcing Thinking With Tech Crutches
Lindaeither. And it's like I use AI for certain things. I use it for work and um but the reason that I like it I think is also the reason that it freaks me out is because I don't have to think all I have to do is prompt. I don't have to think I can prompt and edit which takes very little time. Yeah and I'm okay with doing that for things that I don't care about. I I love to think deeply and widely and expansively about things in other areas of my life besides what I do for work. And so I get that outlet somewhere else that there I don't need to worry about it there. I don't need to have like my deep thought that is spent there. But I do wonder if as people get introduced to it especially like younger and younger too that we lose the capacity to be able to think for ourselves. And we even it's like when calculators came along and you know like people were like why do I have to learn math when I can just use a calculator it's that same thing. It's like we just we outsource thinking itself so not only do we outsource our wisdom and our knowing and our intuition but eventually we also just outsource our thinking and that to me also I'm like I don't want to do that. Like I want the original strange eccentric beautiful sometimes conventional actual thoughts of myself and the people that I know in my life I want to know what they think about the the deep and big issues. I don't want to know what Claude or ChatGPT or you know whatever any of the other perplexity versions of AI like I don't care what they think. Right. I want to know what you think I want to hear you noodle through this problem and all the nuances of it and I want to noodle through it with you. Like that to me I love obviously this is what we do on this podcast almost every week. Like I can can you imagine if you were doing a podcast with an AI oh my God it would be brief and it would be boring. Great idea Laura no it's so true. I mean even just I can't remember if we've talked about here I know we've talked about it one on one um but you know like I don't use my GPS all the time. I'm I'm fairly new to the twin cities and I challenge myself not to use it as much as possible because I want to actually know my way around um I think it's a crutch and when I tell people that people who've lived here their whole lives they're like oh wow I never thought of doing that I don't know how to get from one end of the city to the other without my without my GPS like and and to me it's really important. You know I want I want the security of knowing that I can get around without a machine telling me how to and it's to me that's analogous to the situation with AI like I want to know how to think deeply I want to have the attention span to read and process and I want to be in relationship with real humans and all the messy muck of it even though sometimes it's not fun. But I want that I don't want to lose that me neither me neither that's what I want I want more of for ourselves and for others it's like I want to be in relationship. I think that That's part of it. It's like I want to be in relationship with another human being. And if that human being starts outsourcing their knowledge or their knowing or their thinking or who they are to this machine, I don't feel like I know you. I feel like I know a version of you that is being reflected back to you by a digital product. Right. And that that's like I want to, I want to know you. Like there's just yeah. And you know, in a way, this is a little bit of a confession. Um but Linda gets his look on her face. But I hadn't really thought about this quite this way before until this conversation, which is why I love these conversations so much. But I think there's a degree of laziness, right? Like we use our GPSs, we ask the chat instead of figuring something out for ourselves. We use a calculator instead of just doing the math, even when it's simple math. And um I think like for me, when I was embarking on this relationship that I'm in, at first I was a little bit scared because you know, I'd been in a relationship that I'd been in for a really long time. It was super predictable. The other person that I was with wasn't really interested in any kind of negotiation or really any depth in talking or relating. And so like some of those skills got rusty for me in terms of my you know primary relationship. And so when I embarked on this relationship and I realized like, oh wow, he's like he he really wants connection, he can really process things and talk about things. He's not lazy in that regard at all. He whenever I've brought up anything that was sort of difficult between us, he'll say, Oh, I feel so much better now that we've talked about that. Like, I'm so glad you brought it up. Even when it's been hard, he's like, I'm just so grateful for this conversation. And at the beginning, part of me was like, Ah, can I do this? Because I haven't done it in a long time. It been like seven years that you know, in my marriage, we just stopped doing all of that. Um and I was a little scared. I mean, I admit it, like I thought, man, I don't even up to this. And it just makes me worry that the same sort of process is happening for people regarding AI. Yeah, I could hear that. And thank you for sharing it. I feel like it's um I think it's also that we're kind of sold a false bill of goods in some of those cases, like with AI, like theirs. It's like we're gonna free up space. Like that's always been the promise of any technology is like we're gonna free up space. So free up space in your mind, free up space in your schedule, free up less. Time and time and less labor, yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, where is that? Like that has not come to fruition. And I also wonder where it's like, but what are we freeing up space for? And what are we losing in the process of freeing up that space? Like, what do we lose by not knowing how to navigate our own city without a GPS? Like, what are the things that we do actually want to remember? You know, that we are we outsource our memory in some ways to our phones and to photos, and like there's so many things that it's like, well, then what are we using the human mind and brain for at a certain point? Like, what are we freeing up all this space for? I know. It means it's taking the spot. Some of those movies that seem so far-fetched are coming true, you know. It's yeah, it's like, you know, the there was the movie I can't remember what it was, where the human beings are just these fat, it was like an animated movie, they're like fat blobs sitting around, like just drinking and eating, and their minds were off into like the cloud, basically, yeah, doing things, you know, like what the bodies are just like lounging around, like you know, the mind's not even up in the cloud anymore. It's like the cloud's coming into the mind, like the mind is like, I'm going away entirely. Like I'm not I don't need it. I've got this machine right here that can tell me what to do and how to do it. Yeah, and tell me what to think and why to think it. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. I mean, I think we could talk about this for a long time because clearly it's a topic that I I feel like is very relevant to a lot of us. And um hopefully I didn't get too much on my high horse about it because I know I don't think you did. I know people really love AI, and I think that there is there is there are uses for it, but I think like with anything, we tend to go gallop towards either like one end or the other, like we tend to gallop towards like the best possible scenario or the worst possible scenario. And in reality, I think there's gonna be a lot of benefits to it, and I think there's gonna be a lot of costs. And how do we navigate those? And how do we navigate which costs we're willing to actually pay? And we didn't even get into the environmental cost because this is our whole thing here, is about outsourcing our some of our humanness. Yeah. Um, but there's that too. There's so many pieces, so many. Is there anything? I know we're like at the end of our time. Um, is there anything you'd like to end
Choosing Humanness On Purpose
Lindaon? Like, is there anything that seems maybe a little uplifting? I don't know. Well, I guess there is one thing I want to say. I don't know if it's uplifting. Um, I use the word worry a lot in this podcast. Like I've worried about this stuff. And I I want to just say, like, I'm not walking around worrying about this all the time. It's just when things are presented to me when I hear like people that I love who love AI saying things, it's like sparks concern for me. Um, and so I'm not like generally feeling pessimistic or like we're doomed or any of that. I just think it's really important for us to talk about these things and bring them to light instead of just letting it all slide in a certain direction. Um, and so that's why I think this conversation is important. I don't, I think we're as humans, we have infinite possibilities in front of us, but only if we continue to allow for the humanness that makes that all possible.
unknownYeah.
LindaAnd the connection to our spirits. Our connection to our spirits, not the machine.
unknownYeah.
LindaAnd the ability to consciously choose. I think that's the piece too. I love that I love what you shared there, that it's we have to be able to talk about these things. We have to be willing to look at them and question them. Because even that, again, is engaging our own ability to think critically about these major things that are unfolding in life and how we want to relate to them or not, how we want to engage with them or not. And who we want to be. Who we want to be through this time. And I think that those are the yeah, just the juicy questions that hopefully hopefully we can chat with more of our listeners about at some point in the future. Oh, yeah, I know. We're cooking something up, so stay tuned. Yes, yes. Oh, well, thank you so much, Laura, as always, for this juicy conversation. And you too, my dear friend. Thank you, and thank you to our dear listeners. Until next time.
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