An uncaged woman would never surrender. Would she?

Welcome to Episode 3 of Season 6! 

Surrender sounds like a four-letter word when you’ve spent a lifetime being told to be “good,” accommodating, and smaller than you are. We sit down as best friends and coaches-in-real-life to unpack why surrender gives so many women the ick, and how to reclaim it as something powerful instead of something that costs you your voice, your boundaries, or your agency.

We explore the real dance between agency and surrender: staying rooted in choice while releasing the grip of control. Along the way we get concrete about what agency actually looks like in daily life, why control often shows up as image management and fear of failure, and how boundaries are about what we will accept, not about forcing someone else to behave. If you’ve ever struggled with people-pleasing, over-functioning, or the exhausting need to “make it work,” this conversation offers language you can use immediately.

Subscribe to Woman Uncaged, share this with a friend who’s wrestling with control or exhaustion, and leave a review so more listeners can find us. Then come tell us: where are you practicing agency, and where are you being invited to surrender?

Transcript

Warm Welcome And Friendship Love

Linda 0:02

Hey everyone, and welcome to the Woman Uncaged podcast. This is episode three of season six. Yay! I am Laura Gates Lepton, and I am with my beloved bestie, Linda Katz, who's flipping her hair, her newly washed hair. It looks so lovely.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Still wet. We're gonna be completely honest.

Linda 0:28

That's one of the things I love about Linda is she is very honest and not at all egotistical. Now I know one of the things she hates most in others at times is condescension. She's the least condescending person I know. She's so so much fun to be with, so wise, just so so full of life. That's one of the things I really adore about you, Linda, is you're so full of life. And when I say that, I mean the full gamut, you know, the the joy, so much of the joy, but also the sorrows, the longing, one of her favorite things. You know, she's just such a fun person to do life with. And I'm so grateful that I get to do so much of mine with her, even though we live so far apart. Through the miracles of technology, we get to spend a lot of time together. And I'm very grateful that you are one of my top inner circle people, Linda. Thanks, thanks for being here with me today. Oh, thank you so much, Laura. And I'm here with one of my beloved top inner circle people, slash dear, wonderful, amazing friend and human being, Ms. Laura Gates-Lupton, who is just uh she's the whole package. You know what I mean? She's got the big heart, uh, whip smart, super funny, deep, soulful presence, who can also go through all of the different aspects of life. And I think one of my favorite things that we've talked about before, Laura, is like we can have these conversations that ping all over the board without ever missing a beat. That is true, exactly. You're welcome. Um, but I think that's one of my favorite things about you is that we can just experience the highest of highs, the life's big celebrations, the little mundane annoyances, the heartbreaks, and everything in between. It's just such a privilege and a pleasure to be able to know that I will not have to do that alone and that there's always somebody, aka Laura, who will be there and yeah, be in my corner. And it's just such a deep gratitude that I have for you as my dear friend, and for our dear listeners, in case you don't know, Laura is also a coach who offers a version of that to her clients. And so if you are not on the Goodwith Money Substack and following her work and what she's up to in the world, really get on there. I mean, what are you waiting for? This is your invitation. Make sure that you're following along. Um, and you can get uh more of than just your weekly dose of Laura in your life. It is such a pleasure to be here with you today, my dear friend, as always. Well, thank you. And your corner is a very easy one to be in, I have to say. So, what are we talking about today, dear corner friend?

Agency Meets The Word Surrender

Linda 3:32

Ah, so last week we dove into the topic of agency and having agency in our lives, inspired by that wonderful quote that Laura brought forth from a book that she was reading, and really about agency being this way that we can see the hidden doors that are available in our lives, where maybe before we may have seen walls where other people may see walls, all of a sudden there's a path to greater freedom and choice. And at some point towards the end of our conversation, Laura had mentioned that, you know, that life looked vastly different from how she had expected it to look. Um, I think was the the part that triggered this idea that we wanted to dive into. That, you know, a couple of years ago when you initially, you know, started this large life transition, moving from the place where you had lived for quite a long time, uh, leaving a marriage that you had been in for, you know, half of your life, that the life that you had envisioned for yourself ended up being quite a bit different from the one that you're living. And the one that you're living is glorious and beautiful and happy and full of love. And I think it begs this very interesting question as we were talking about agency and our ability to choose and to decide and how that relates to surrender and our ability to stay open to life as as I'm gonna say a she is showing up for us. And yeah, sometimes I think those two things are pitted against each other in some way that we have to quote surrender one for the other. Uh, but I would love to hear your your thoughts on that. Like what what are the things that initially when you hear the word surrender, what's your gut like? Ugh, what do you feel? I have to say it's a word I don't particularly like. Um I've come to like it more, but in the before times, in the before Linda times, before I was your client, before I read your wonderful book, Homecoming, um, which surrender is a part of it, I I associated it with victimhood of not having agency, of being subject to something or someone that I didn't want to be subject to. That that's how I saw surrender. I see it very differently now, but it's taken time to get here. Um and I think I think in part it's just the way it's portrayed in the culture. It's like we don't usually hear good things about surrender. Sometimes we do, but often not, especially where it comes to women. I think a lot of times it's like you know, you surrender to the man for whatever, you know, it's like you give up yourself for the man. Yeah. Which is, as you know, everybody here knows that's not how I want to live my life. Me neither. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, that was my long time association with it. How about you? Yeah, I mean, I think that kind of similar that I think that especially for women, it is it become it can be easily become a should, like you were saying, that wraps very smoothly around this idea that we um should be self-sacrificing and that surrender is basically just a more spiritual way of saying subjugation. I was trying to think of what the word was that I was trying to, but I think that that that is the kind of tone that it has. Um and it's taking me a long time, I think, to to come around to what is a version of surrender that is is meaningful for me. Because it it does feel like it's a valuable part of life to me now. The way that for any one of our listeners who is a tarot person, when I think of the final card in the major arcana, the the world or the world dancer, to me, the energy of that card is the dance of agency and surrender. It is, oh, it gives me the goosebumps just saying it. There is um it's meeting the moments of our lives with our agency fully intact, but at the same time, it's not that kind of gripping, grasping, uh, anxious, controlling energy. There is an openness to receiving what life is is bringing to us and then choosing how we respond to it. You know, like for example, to come back to the the story that inspired this, right? Like when you met your your now partner, right? Like life presented this option to you. And you had a choice, like you still had your agency intact to make the choice to meet that moment. Um, but what it does, what it did mean was letting go of an idea of what your life was going to look like. Like, and to me, that is a bit of the surrender, is letting go of the places where we might have grown rigid or um, yeah, we have a specific way that we expect life to look. And when something different shows up, we're like, nope, this isn't it. I have to mark I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say yes to this. Um but yeah, it is it is a tricky word. It is a tricky word, and at the same time, it does feel like there's something um I don't know, but deeply meaningful in it as well. Yeah, I I do I think so too. I think for me there's been a bit of a reclamation around the word. Um, and that started when I read the book The Surrender Experiment, which I really liked. I can't really identify with it, like I'm not trying to do that kind of degree of surrender, but it was really fascinating to read. And then working with you as my coach, um and talking about surrender in a more full context and not just in the subjugation version was really helpful. And in part too, also realizing that one of the things I had said I wanted for a really long time was to live more by intuition. And there's a degree of surrender to that because you are saying, you know, like I'm gonna put this in the forefront and not so much my ideas about what I should or shouldn't be doing or what life should look like. Because as we know, intuition works in really strange, tricky kinds of ways. Yes.

Intuition And Dating After Divorce

Linda 10:27

And I remember distinctly when I met my now partner, and I could I'll just briefly say that I was living in Cincinnati at the time. I came up here to the Twin Cities because my daughter was graduating from college. And while I was here, I well, before I actually got here, I was I was on Bumble because I was dating a bit, but I was doing it for fun. I wasn't, I did not plan to meet anybody, did not was not looking for a long-term partner. Um, I decided to look at the guys up here because I knew when I got here they were going to show me all the guys up here. So that I was I was just laying in bed and I was couldn't sleep. So I thought I would look. And there was one profile that caught my eye, and I kept I looked at it like 20 times before I was like, oh, just reach out to him. And then I did. And then we ended up meeting for coffee while I was here. Um but when I when I met him, I remember having this really like gut level intuitive feeling of like, oh, I I want to get to know this guy better. And even though part of my head was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is not in the plan. I definitely had a feeling like, oh, this could be something. And part of me was like, no, what are you doing? No, don't go down this road. Yes, yeah, because the the vision I had was I'm gonna be single, I'm gonna have fun, I'm gonna date, I'm gonna do what I want to do, I'm gonna have sex, you know, safe sex, you know. But um, I'm not gonna commit to one person, I'm not gonna tie myself down. I am never ever getting married again, which I said to Linda many times. And, you know, like that was the the vision. And then this person pops up and he's so not a part of that vision. But at the same time, I also recognize, like, wow, there's something really special about this person. Not the least of which was that he used the word embodiment in our first days. Like, I just want to be more embodied. And I was like, what? You're like, who are you? Tell me more. You're like winking to the universe, like, all right, I'm paying attention. Well, and the funny thing is too, I had hosted a workshop for a friend who was transitioning to dating coaching. And so I hosted a workshop for her, and she had us do an exercise where we wrote down things that we were looking for in a partner, and I did the exercise even though I wasn't looking for a partner. And then later I was thinking about it, and I thought of some things to add to it. So I ended up writing like three pages in my journal, thinking nothing of it at all. Because it wasn't, I was just doing it because it was part of the workshop, and then it was kind of an no attachment to it, no attachment, none. And weeks after we met, I thought, oh, I should go back and look at that. And I did, and he ticked off every single thing but two. Weird, and the two weren't that important. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, really weird. It's like I wish I could say this is prescriptive and everybody should just do that, and it would, but I don't think so. I think it's the lack of like, I have no idea how the universe works. So sometimes I feel like the lack of attachment can be helpful in things coming in because, and perhaps that is part of what we're talking about, is that when we're not attached to the outcome of something, we can just live from intuition. We can just live from the moment. At least in my own experience, I know that I'm more open when I'm in those places than when I'm really attached to making an outcome happen. It's like that really strong goal orientation is a way that just shuts out so much of life, so much joy, so much possibility and potential. Um, because I'm just gripping so hard. Like, nope, this is where I'm going. Fuck the rest of it. Yeah. Yeah. And having this, like, I I mean, I have to admit, I had a kind of an attachment to the idea of what my divorce life should be as a feminist and as someone who really values like women being independent and having interdependent relationships. I part of me wanted to sort of prove it, you know, like go out there and be single and prove that I could be happy and have a great life on my own. I actually already had an idea for a memoir I wanted to write called Happily After. Like more happy after the divorce than before. And it was all about the single life and all of that. So funny. I know. And so then when we started dating, I was like, damn it, I can't write that book now. And as I told Laura a few, I can't remember, it was a few months ago, I was like, well, fuck, this is your new memoir. Because I think that we we've had a a large number in recent years of divorce memoirs come out. Beautiful, wonderful, important. Yeah, I've loved reading them. Loved them. Me too. I'm married, I still love them. If it's good writing, they're great stories. I love to hear feel like you know, that that empowerment that comes along with developing agency, developing your own agency and freedom and turning towards your own preferences and what makes you come alive. Like, I think that's amazing. And it's not the only story, and I think that's what what your story is to me, Laura, is a reminder that there's so many ways that this can look, that it doesn't have to look the one way that we expect it to in the memoir. It's like happily after could be it's taken on a new twist. And I think that that is um that's so important, also. You know, like I just feel like it's uh whenever there is that maybe that's the contrarian in me, but whenever there's one like meta-narrative that starts taking over, I just want to have a take a left turn because I'm like, nope, let's go to a new one. Let's see what this other narrative has to teach us. Oh, well, lucky for you, that's what I did. I took a left turn. I love it.

Surrender Without Subjugation

Linda 16:22

I love it. Well, it's one of the things that I was thinking about too, in terms of just the issues that we've both experienced around surrender, is that I think because we live in a patriarchal culture, surrender has come at the cost of agency. Like it's not just that's been our how we've seen it or whatnot. It's like it is pushed down women's throats that that is what it means to be a good woman. And so it has come at the cost of that. But I think that for women, there might be a sense of we need to first develop that sense of agency. I think of the work of Marion Woodman, and one of the ways that she would describe it was that, you know, there's so much out there, especially in kind of spiritual or self-help about letting go of the ego or shedding the ego or not living from ego. And in one of her books or talks or something, she spoke about how no, women need to develop an ego. Yeah. Like before you can open to that, you know, because surrender has a bit of that divine energy to it, to feeling like there is some greater force in our lives that is not dictating to us, but offering us possibilities. Like before we can open to that force, we have to be grounded in ourselves. We have to have a sense of agency, we have to be understand who we are, have an ego, have a will, um, like a sense of will, not like for when we die. Although that might be helpful too. Um never a bad idea. Um, but you know, it's I think that's part of it, is that we because of the patriarchal world that we live in, we try to skip over that part for women. And so no wonder we have this difficult relationship and this kind of resistance to the word or the idea of surrender is because it has. We've come at the cost of ourselves. We've sh been shown that it will come at the cost of ourselves. Very rarely do we see a woman who is whole unto herself that does embody that world dancer that can be full of her own ideas and her own agency and her own will and take life as a dance partner. But I'm like, man, that I would love to get to that point. Like it is not, that's why it's the end of the major arcana. It's not, you know, it's not the easiest of journeys. I've never really thought about this before, and I'll have to see if this stands up over time. But in this moment, right now, it seems to me like surrender isn't about people. Like you don't surrender to other people. Surrender is more about giving into not giving in, but you know, accepting life forces. It's about you know surrendering to relationships, maybe, but not to people, which is very subtle, but it's different. Very much so. I I to me that very much resonates. And I think that that is kind of putting them like the nail on the head, or whatever that's saying is, that that's what we've been taught surrender looks like, because it is surrendering to the will of your husband or the will of your father or whatever other and certain other male character in your life, and that this is really about a relationship with something that is much grander than another person. In some ways, it's like having a relationship and surrendering to the voice of your own soul, which is I think where your intuition comment comes in too. It's like that the even the aspects of ourselves that are beyond our conscious or perhaps rational understanding. Yeah. I mean, for my partner and me to even meet, there were so many odd things that had to fall into place. So when we talked about it, he had changed his dating profile like a week, 10 days before. And if he hadn't, I wouldn't even have seen it.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

Oh wow.

Linda 20:33

Um, you know, he had broken up with a relationship like two months before, and normally he waits a long time before getting on a dating app, but this time he decided he wasn't gonna wait. Like there were so many things that happened that you know, there's no way either of us could have orchestrated our meeting. So I think that's part of it too. It's like there are these larger forces that for whatever reason, I don't, you know, and again, like I don't I don't think you can make them do it. It's like that's that's the point, is that we're not in charge, is that surrendering to the fact that they exist and actually listening to the whisper, listening to the inclination, the direction, you know, is part of what surrender is about. It's it's about recognizing that we are not in control.

unknown 21:17

Yes.

Linda 21:19

And I think that so often we are taught to just continue pushing, push through at all, you know, because the the word surrender also has, you know, that military context of like laying down and dying. Yes, right. There is that, you know, that kind of perspective of that word as well. That's right, giving up your power, essentially, saying you're more powerful than I am, so I surrender to you.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Yeah.

Linda 21:50

And that's why I don't think what we're talking about is that kind of surrender. It's not the surrender to other people. No, it's it might be to the surrender to greater forces that are. Greater than we are, like the of which there are so many. And regardless of whether you have, you know, a uh spiritual belief in God, goddess, the divine, the universe, or if it's the forces of nature. I was just thinking, even surrendering to the weather. Yes, exactly. They're like the things that we just can't change, you know, like that in our power as individual human beings, climate, maybe, but individual weather, no, we can't. And yeah, that there is this recognition, it's it's again that paradox of the recognition of where we do have power and where we don't, where we are, where we are larger than we give ourselves credit for, and where we're actually smaller. And how can we occupy that space in our lives? And how can that make us more human? How can that put us into greater communion with these larger forces and other people in our lives? Yes. When we're not trying to control everything all the time. Yes, and control and agency are really different too. Yes. Okay, say

Agency Versus Control And Boundaries

Linda 23:08

more about that. I wanted to know because I think this is such an important, an important distinction. And I'd love to hear kind of how you distinguish between those two things. Well, to me, agency is more about it's a lot about taking action, but it's not about trying to necessarily control an outcome or control, especially not to control other people. Like agency is a very personal thing, it's very much about what I will do or what I won't do. And you know, like with boundaries, for example, we tend to get them really confused. Like boundaries to me are about what I will accept and what I won't accept. They're all about me. My boundaries are about me, they're not about other people. You know, so like I have a client who was telling me recently that she made a phone call to another family member and her brother was upset because he asked her not to do that. And he said, You disrespected my boundaries. Like his boundary was she shouldn't make this call. That's not a boundary, that's a request, but it's not a boundary. And I I think that's it's kind of similar with agency. It's like agency is very individual and personal, and it's about what we we want to do, can do, will do, choose to do, but it's not about controlling other people or controlling outcomes. Yes. To me, there's a big difference. Does that make sense? Oh, it makes so much sense. And I think that where we do get confused a lot of times is that we try to, especially with boundaries, like try to control other people's behavior. Yes. Which is uh futile and frustrating and um yeah, not a very empowering place to be in a relationship in any way, shape, or form. Right. A boundary is not a dictate. It's not you will do this, that's not a boundary, or you won't do this, that's not a boundary. It's I I will tolerate this, I won't tolerate that, I will accept this, I won't accept that. Those fall on the the realm of boundaries.

unknown 24:55

Yeah.

Linda 24:55

Um, but reading the the book about agency, the one we were talking about last week, I've gotten further into it. And one of the things that she talks about is being willing to sometimes fail, quote unquote, fail spectacularly, as you're exercising your agency. And if you think about control, control is often an attempt not to fail. It's an attempt to keep circumstances in your favor, to look good, yeah, you know, all of those living up to standards, you know, control is a lot about that, controlling your image, you know, controlling other people's perception of who you are. And the way she talks about agency is really letting all of that go. I love that. What the words that come to mind are the agency is our freedom and control are the cages. Control is a cage. Yeah, it feels like a cage. It feels like the opposite. Like when you were describing, you know, controlling how other people see us, controlling the outcome, controlling our image, like all of those pieces. It's like, oh, that just makes us smaller and less wild and less authentic versions of who we are, versus agency is breaking out of those cages. And I love that word, like allowing ourselves to fail spectacularly.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Yeah.

Linda 26:19

Yeah, in the service of more freedom.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Yes.

Linda 26:23

Because when you're afraid to fail, then you are you are reining yourself in, right? You're not seeing all the choices that could be there because you're not going to look at the ones that are risky.

unknown 26:34

Yeah.

Linda 26:35

And I think that there's a certain degree of surrendering in that too, like allowing the failure without having it mean something about who you are as a person, without there being this, like, oh my God, I failed and now, you know, all of this, this, the negative stories is that we can tend to tell ourselves. It's like sometimes we move boldly towards our dreams, and then the world is like, no, no, you will not get that. Like, oh, I'm coming back to Marion Woodman. This is what a quote that she had in um uh one of the talks that she gave towards the the latter part of her life when she was really into that, you know, into her crone energy. And she was saying, I'm gonna paraphrase here, but she was basically saying, you know, so many people will come to her and be like, oh, you know, I I just I've prayed for this and I prayed for this, and like, and I just God never answered. And her response was, no, God did answer. The answer was no. And that when I heard that, I was like, oh shit, right? We because we always think that if a prayer has been answered, the answer is yes, right, and the the surrender piece comes also from when the answer is no. Yes, and then how do we pick ourselves back up, find our own agency, and continue to move forward in our lives at those times when the answer is no? Yeah, yeah. Well, sometimes the answer is no, like the answer was no to me. Like I had this vision of myself as this single person happy and living in my own apartment with my cat, and you know, and and the answer was no, right? Like that's what came to me. But I also read something the other day, I don't remember where I read it, but um, it said God answers prayers through other people. That's one of the things that we get wrong is that you know, it's the proverbial guy on the roof that the floodwaters are rising and he's praying for rescue, and the you know, boat shows up and he turns them down, and a helicopter shows up and he turns them down because he's like, No, God will rescue me, God will rescue me. And then when he drowns, he goes to heaven, he says, Why didn't you rescue me? And God's like, I sent a boat, a helicopter, and what else?

SPEAKER_01 28:49

What did you want?

Linda 28:50

Yeah, like you know, yeah, it's like but we we tend to get that wrong, we tend not to see it in other people as oh, that's the answer to the prayer, yeah. And and often maybe it doesn't look like what we're thinking it's going to be. Yeah, you know, we have we tend to get really specific about how we think prayers are gonna come true or be answered. 100%, 100%. How do you think also kind of like I mean you mentioned the surrender experiment, and I think I read part of it, and all I remember is being very irate. There there is some of it that's very annoying, I agree. I think because there is also this, like it's a it's a dude who's written it, and I think that surrender can look very different if you're a man than a woman. Like, wasn't there somebody who came and like lived on his property and he was like, Yes, come in? And I think that there's that's another piece with surrender is like having agency, having boundaries, having in order to be able to surrender and say yes, we need to be secure in our ability to say no. Yes, I totally agree. Because otherwise, we're just in our little girl, in our good girl energy of like, yes, yes, you can come into my house, man, with a knife. Right. Well, I surrender. And this is super obvious, but I think the lessons that men need to learn are very different from the lessons that women need to learn. And that's part of it too, is that you know, for men to say yes to more things and to be more open to life is a very different lesson than for like women to be more accommodating. Like, no, thanks. We don't need that lesson. I already got that one from yeah, yeah. We've had a master class in that from the time we were tiny about putting other people first, saying yes, no matter how we feel, being accommodating. Like, that's not what we're talking about here. Yeah, you know, I think there's a a big difference. So, yeah, the surrender experiment, there were some things about it I really loved. You know, I loved the synchronicities and the things that happened because he chose to surrender to life. But there were definitely parts where I'm like, you did what? Excuse me? I'm just gonna add that caveat because that's all I remembered about the book was being like, what the hell? True. But I think that's part of the reason why for me I gravitate more towards female writers and thinkers to who can write about the female experience, just because I think that yes, there are universal aspects to being human, but because of perhaps because of at least how you know, growing up in a patriarchal system, the story of development, whether it's because of that or because of some element of nature, like it's just different. It makes me think of the work of Carol Gilligan and in a different voice, I think her book was about how when the development was mapped against little boys growing into men, that it missed this whole part of the story, and it looked like women never grew up. Right. It looked like women never matured because the yardstick was just completely different because of because of these things. That it's like men are often given a lot of agency and you know, that whole hero's journey, and their their journey is towards greater connection and with other people and opening to life and all of that. And with women, it's like we often start in that place. We we start in greater connection with family and friends and all of those pieces, and we have to grow to develop a sense of our own selves, right? But we're told it's in our best interest not to essentially. It's like, you know, it's in the guise of safety that we're held back from from doing that. Um, but I I also think this is a slight shift, if you don't mind. But

Surrendering To Seasons And Grief

Linda 32:48

no, I love I love seasons. I also think that there can be surrender to seasons. You know, we talk a lot about seasons on the show, but because I think it's something it's not understood that well. I think it's very important that there are seasons of life. Some of them are very short, some of them are not, but there can be that too, that we have ideas about what life is going to be like, and then things get served up to us that, you know, like for example, my dad is dying right now. It's a it's a whole different season for me. And we're entering a bit of a rough part right now. And I was talking to my partner the other night about um, because I was feeling pretty down and sad, and I had been for a few days, and I said to him, you know, I hope I I don't, I'm concerned that I'm coming across like a wet blanket in this relationship, you know. And he was like, you know, honestly, I'd be worried about you if you weren't feeling something like you're going through all of this stuff right now. And then he went in, I won't share the whole thing because it's long, but he went into this whole thing about how he sees relationships as like a bridge. He's like, and the bridge has to be able to take weight, and this is this is one of those times when there's just more weight, and that's okay. The relationship has to be strong enough to support that. And I mean it was really lovely and affirming and very sweet, but also basically what he was saying is it's okay to surrender to it. It's okay to really be there, it's okay to not pretend that you're doing better than you are. Such wisdom. I know, and I'm so lucky. I know, and now you can understand why Laura had to surrender her life plan. If I hadn't, I would have missed out on this, which is I've never had a relationship like this.

unknown 34:31

Yeah.

Linda 34:31

I mean, he happens to be a couples therapist and he's done, you know, tons of work in that direction. So that also helps. But um, but you know, it's like I if I hadn't been willing to say, oh, okay, I'm gonna go in this direction for a while, even though it's not the very careful path I thought I had planned. No, I would have missed out on experiencing exactly this.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Yeah.

Linda 34:59

I love that. And I just love that that you brought that forward. It feels really important, like the surrendering to the seasons of our lives that we're in. And I think that it is something that we are just not taught. You know, like imagine it's like you experience the death of a loved one, and if you work a full-time job, you might get three days of bereavement. Yep. And then it's like expected to come right back, come right back, perform just like you did beforehand. There is very little surrender to the season of life that we're in. Or like we spoke about last week, like if you have a child, that that is a season, you know, you have a baby, that is a season of life that you're in. And the the way that your life was before that is is probably not very likely to remain the same. But I think that we have this way of extrapolating that whatever season we're in right now is just it. Like, yeah, this is it now, this is my life, and it's like, no, it's just your life right now. For better or worse, some seasons of life are lovely and we love to hang on to them, but they don't stay either. No, none of them do. There's and I think that there's just such such wisdom in surrendering to where we are because it allows us to be honest about how we're feeling. Um, it allows us to not be in resistance to life. Yeah. And resistance is where a lot of the pain comes from. It's like we're resisting sadness, resisting what's happening is what causes suffering. Oh, yeah. And it's exhausting because it's exhausting. We know that again, like with all of these things, if we're trying to control, if we're trying to resist, I'm an expert at it. It is so fucking tiring because we can't hold back the forces of nature, including ourselves, including the emotions that live within us and the feelings that live within us. Like to be in resistance is just yeah, it's futile. I and I think it actually ends up uh a being a disservice to our growth and our deepening. Yeah, I think so too. And I do think that children are a beautiful example of that. That you know, when you are expecting a baby, you have all kinds of ideas about what it's going to be like. And I don't think it ever works out that way. And they're their own force of nature. And so, you know, try struggling against that, trying to keep the same life that you had causes tremendous suffering. But people do it all the time, you know. And I probably have said this on here before because it was so outrageous. But it's years ago, Dr. Phil had a woman on his show, a couple actually, and the husband was complaining that their life had changed so much since the baby came along, and his his wife belonged more to the baby than to him, and that kind of stuff. And Dr. Phil said, Well, when a baby comes, it joins your life, not the other way around. And he was insistent, like when his first child was born, that they still play loud music in the house, and his mother-in-law wanted to turn the music down. He's like, No, no, no, the baby has to get used to it. The baby's joined our lives. Like, in other words, we're not gonna accommodate this baby, we're gonna, you know, keep these things the same. And it was so outrageous. I was just like flabbergasted. It's amazing to me that a man who had two children could even think this is possible. It made me wonder like, did his wife do everything? Like, I mean, seriously, how could he even put that forth? It's just ridiculous. But I think that's a good example, though, of what we try to do. Things come along in our lives and we try to keep everything. Well, this isn't gonna impact me. I'm gonna keep going, which is a very masculine, very patriarchal, very productivity culture way of being. Yeah, there's no flow to it. No, and that's part of the problem. Yes, it's part of why we think we were doing something wrong when actually surrendering to these big meaningful life events is how we grow and change and develop. Like you said, like that's how we create depth. Yeah, meaning relationships, meaning, yeah, yeah. So many of the things that really for me, at least, make life remind me of why life is worth living. Like the the juice, the marrow of life is in that. Yeah. And sometimes I do a better job at it than others, right? Like it's a work in a learning in progress or an unlearning in progress.

Never Say Never And Life’s Magic

Linda 39:42

But I know we don't have a ton of time left, but I want to ask you a question. Yeah. So where where in your life have you I don't want to say had to surrender, but where have you ultimately surrendered when maybe you fought it a little bit at first? Oh, that's a good question. I mean, I've been thinking a lot about Sophie's passing recently. Um and I think that was one of the areas because it was my first like real um close, meaningful encounter with death.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

Yeah.

Linda 40:15

And um leading up to her death, I had all of these dreams, like a set of them of me, like a strange man breaking into my house and like me being like, What the fuck are you doing in here? And like throwing him out and then like locking all the doors and locking all the windows. And that was that was me. That was what I was. I was that was Death who came for a visit, who had, you know, penetrated my defenses. And I did my damnedest to try to throw it out. I was like, nope, you are not welcome here. Like, I'm gonna resist this. And eventually had to surrender to what was happening. And though it was excruciating, it was also really meaningful to be there for you know, the end of my soul creatures journey here on earth. So that's one of the like hoo huh sides that I feel like. I've been trying to think of one that might be a little more uplifting. Um I mean, I can't think of another one off the top of my head. How about you? Is there anything else that comes to mind where you've kind of had I can think of one for you? Okay, please share. Even better. I well, what came to mind for me, and this is come if you read Linda's book, she talks about this. Um moving to Plano, moving back to Plano. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Yeah, which is a good thing.

Linda 41:52

Right? Oh, yeah. I said that for since I left in 2001. I was like, I'm never moving back to Dallas. I'm never moving back to Dallas. And then in 2020, we're like, maybe we'll move back to Dallas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Yeah.

Linda 42:06

Surrendering to the forces of life and the things that we thought we'll never do. That's always such a to me, that's a great sign that we are resisting that the greater forces in our lives is when we're like, I'll never do this. And then life is like, sure, let's see how that works out. Yeah. I mean, I I haven't shared this year, but you know, I did say over and over again I would never get married, and I am engaged now. So I didn't want to say it when you're like said it earlier. I was like, I'm gonna stay quiet. I'm very happily engaged. Oh yay. But it's true. It's like those things where you're like, no. Whenever it's like that old saying, never say never. There's a reason for it. It's like we set up these walls, and somehow life is like, let's we'll see about that. Yeah, we'll see how that goes. There might be dangle something right in front of you. Yep. Can you say no now? You still want to say never? Yeah. And it's like that's there's also that part, like agency gives life freedom, but I also think a certain degree of surrender can make life more fun. Like, obviously, the version of Sophie dying, not as fun. But like to live in that state of openness and wonder and surprise. I think that's something that as modern humans, we really miss because so much of our life is planned and scheduled and thought out to the day, to the week, to the month, to the year, to the five-year plan, to the retirement plan. You know, everything from cradle to grave has basically been planned out for us. And I think that having that degree of surrender, or like you said, living more by intuition, giving intuition more of a voice in our lives, it really re-infuses the magic back into our lives, or it has the capacity to do that. Yeah, it allows us to be more, yeah, to be pleasantly surprised to have those serendipitous moments to experience those synchronicities. Yeah. Yeah. But even and even with Sophie's death, I remember both of us thought that you would have a really painful grieving period after she passed, and we were both very surprised that it wasn't what we thought it was gonna be. I mean, it's not a fun thing, but it was a surprise that it had a different shape to it than we both thought. We were both like sort of dreading poised and dreading, and like we talked about it a lot beforehand, like what it would probably look like. And you know, I remember thinking, oh, I want to figure out how to really be there for Linda, and and then it just wasn't what we had talked about at all. Yeah. And being open to that. And I remember there was a part there where I had to leave that group around pet grieving because I was like, oh, my grief looks really different than a lot of other people's, and I don't want to compare my my process to anyone else's. Well, there's no right way, there's no wrong way either. That's the we also get that confused. Yeah, yeah.

Closing Reflections And Listener Invitation

Linda 45:25

Yeah, I cannot believe how fast the time went today. I know, such a juicy conversation, so much fun, so much fun. See, the this, and I think that surrendering to these conversations, that's another form of surrender before we go. Like, and this I think is an example of it, our podcast. We never know where the conversation's going. We have a vague idea, and then it's just surrendering to what is coming forth from each of us in the moment and the shared field, if you will, that is created between the two of us and in conversation. And that's what makes relationship and conversation so much fun. Oh, yeah. It's like when you don't know where it's going. Oh my god, how boring life would be if you knew where every conversation was going. Why have it? That's my problem with a lot of podcasts. If they're like scripted, I'm like, oh God, it feels so that's my problem with things where they say, This is what we're gonna tell you today, and then they tell you, and it's like, oh, you just told me that. Yay! I don't enjoy that at all. So thank you, dear listeners, for being part of this uh experiment in conversational surrender, and we'd love to hear from you. Let us know how this is showing up in your life. Where, what is your dance of agency and surrender been like? What is that? How have you experienced it, not experienced it? What's your relationship been with surrender? Have you had, you know, kind of like Laura and I, the initial uh the ick, if you will, that came with surrender. We'd love to know. We would. We would. All right, until next time. Until next time.