Congrats On The Quest! Now Change A Diaper 🙄

We're back for Season Six, and we're taking aim at the hero’s journey, and the way it teaches men to chase a “mission” while women keep the whole world running at home. We make the case for richer stories built on connection, community, and the inner life, not conquest and applause.

A man gets a call about a big opportunity right after his second child is born and proudly tells the story like it proves he’s committed to his mission. All we can hear is the part he skips: the postpartum partner left at home with a newborn and a toddler, the invisible labor, the unasked consent, and the cultural permission slip that lets men chase “the quest” while women hold the entire foundation of daily life.

We dig into why the classic hero’s journey still shapes coaching, career advice, and pop culture, and why it can be both sexist and spiritually flattening. We talk about the mental load women carry, the way mothers get criticized for work travel while fathers get excused, and the unspoken damage this does to intimacy and family systems. Along the way, we pull in memoir as a counter-story, including reflections inspired by Maggie Smith’s You Could Make This Place Beautiful, where the inner life and the hard rebuild after loss are real heroism.

If this conversation hits a nerve, share it with a friend and tell us what story you’re trying to live. Subscribe, leave a review, and let us know: what kind of stories are you hungry for?

Transcript

Welcome Back To Season Six

Linda 0:02

Hello everyone. Dun da da dun. We are back after our summer hiatus, our summer vacay, if you will. Welcome to episode one, season six of the Woman Uncaged Podcast. My name is Linda Katz, and I'm here with my beloved and dear friend, Ms. Laura Gates-Lupton, who we were chatting before we jumped on here. And I was like, it really was very sad to not meet. And recording is wonderful, but really it's just a wonderful time for me to get to share space and time and energy and wonderful conversation with my my dear, dear friend Laura. And it's just lovely to have this time. And it's just Laura is such a wonderful, wonderful human being, such a deep feeler, critical thinker, someone who thinks both deep and wide, if that makes sense, that there is like the big picture, there is the details, there is the heart of the matter, and it all gets interwoven into one magnificent human being that I get to call a dear friend and a fellow podcast uh co-host. And it's just so wonderful to be here with you today, Laura. It's just so wonderful to be back. Yeah, I'm so excited to be back too. I've missed my Linda time. Um we have time besides this, but it's just nice to have this dedicated time to see each other every week. And you know, Linda is one of my dearest, one of my besties. She's just such a bright light in my life. And in part because she also has a deep and a wide thinker. I've never thought those words, I don't think, but um, but you know, it's there's so much we can talk about, and there's so much we can share and experience together because Linda has such a wide open heart and also is just one of those wonderful soft places to fall for me. So no matter what's going on, I can share it with her and I know that it will be met and received and often reflected back to me in beautiful, articulate ways. Um, I really love it when we share our dreams with each other, both waking and nocturnal, and all the conversations that we have and that we share because she's just such a brilliant, beautiful human. It's wonderful to be here with you today, Linda. We're back. Yay! We're back, baby. We're back.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

We're back. Okay, so what? What are we kicking off with?

Why We Reject The Hero Myth

Linda 2:35

What are we talking about today? Today we're gonna talk about the hero's journey and how much we hate it. Which may not have been where you thought this was going, or maybe you did if you've been here a while. And this came about because over our break, I read a book by a coach that I respect and admire. And then as part of his book, he had extra content online. And so I was watching some videos. I will not name this person because I do not want to shame him. Um, it's not really about him, it's more of a symptom that we see in other areas. But this is what prompted me to be talking about this with Linda recently or ranting to Linda, I should say. But basically, he was talking about how in his coaching, he wants his clients to have a mission, and that mission should be more important than anything. And he gave the example of after his wife gave birth to a second child, he received a phone call, this opportunity to go to another country and set up a school. And he said, you know, that was like really super important to me, and it became my mission. And I would stop at nothing to do it. And I went to my wife and I was like, Hey, babe, I know you just gave birth to our second child. We have a newborn and a toddler, but I've got to do this. It's my mission. I'm going, I'm going to this other country, really far away, and to do this thing, and I'll be gone for a while. And part of me was so pissed off because like, what if what if it was her mission? Does she get to just like take off and leave? I think we all know the answer to that question.

unknown 4:05

Yeah.

Linda 4:06

It's like, what the hell are you talking about? Um, and I'm just, I'm personally am very tired of this thory idea of, you know, this very hyper masculine idea of like having singular missions that just and and singular focus foci and such that just like it takes over everything and nothing else matters. Why are these dudes able to do this and still have a family?

unknown 4:34

Yeah.

Linda 4:35

Why? This who has the answer to that question?

unknown 4:38

Yeah.

Linda 4:39

And it's like this is what history is littered with. I think it's littered with. It's like all of the the quote unquote heroes, the people who have, you know, they've been able to do that because they've had this singular focus and this mission and yada yada yada. And meanwhile, all of civilization and all of humankind has been perpetuated and taken care of and made sure to be fed and have diapers changed and homes that are taken care of, and things that, you know, like back in the day, food that was grown, it wasn't like food just appeared on people's tables, and all of that happened because of the women in their lives. Yes. Because the women are there to run everything, to support everything, to keep things moving, to make sure people, like Linda said, are fed and clothed and you know, clean sheets on the beds. You know, it's like my grandmother used to say, even when people are sleeping, their bellies are emptying and their sheets are getting dirty. You know, it's like because she's like, it's my work is never done. That was her point. And I hated hearing that when I was a kid. I was gotta be, there's gotta be more to life than that. But it's true, it's true. And it has been, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And well, and I think it continues to be. I see it in my work all the time that the women that I work with, when they want to go off to do something, it's a big deal because somebody else has to take over for them. Whereas when the guys want to go, it's just taken for granted, especially if it's a work trip. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's because that takes that's the precedence that takes precedence over all else. And I think you realize then how much women in general still handle, manage, care for, keep things alive, whether humans, pets, plants, all of those things. Yes. Yes. And you know the term that comes came up for me that I was like, ugh. Sometimes we'll call them like when you were saying that thing about your grandmother, unsung heroes. Oh god. Oh yeah. It's just like, oh, it just makes me cringe. Behind every man, you know, is uh a great woman or whatever, and just quietly toiling away. It's like the mice and like the all of the fairy tales. Like that's what women's roles are. It's like the mice that just go in at night and help to make it all happen, and then they're like, ta-da! I get to claim all the credit for my genius mind that I've had. Of course, you've had time to develop it, you've had time to study because every other aspect of life has been taken care of for you. Yes. I feel very passionately about this.

Care Work That Makes Heroes Possible

Linda 7:20

I do too. I do too. And I've just been rereading uh Maggie Smith's memoir, You Could Make This Place Beautiful. He's read it, right? Oh yes, I loved that book. I love it too. And it's it's been fun to reread it. When I first read it, I was freshly separated from my marriage. So it I had a very different experience going on in my life, you know, than I do now. So it's been kind of fun to reread it. Um, but in that, as you may recall, there's a part where she goes off on a work trip in her husband's home with the kids and it doesn't go well, and he's pissed off at her. And so they're talking about it, and and he's he says something kind of nasty about the fact that she was gone. She said, I was working, and he's like, Yeah, sure you were. And then later, when they're meeting with their attorneys over the divorce, and his attorney refers to her working, she she uses air quote. She's like, Oh, you knew when you were out working. I forgot about this part, my jaw is dropping. Oh, I just read that, so you know it's fresh in my memory, but it it just made me so angry. It's just you know, and I have a client right now who she and her ex-husband both own their own businesses. She may out-earn him, I'm not sure, but um the kids always say, Well, dad has to go to work and get mad at mom if she has work-related things, even though they both own their own businesses. And she keeps reminding the kids, no, he doesn't have to go to work, he's choosing to go to work. His business could run without him. And they're like, Oh no, no, he has to go to work. He says he has to go to work. But she works from home, even though she runs her own business, and the kids are very frustrated with her when she can't isn't available, but totally are cool when their dad's not available. And thus it continues to perpetuate. And the kids are both boys. Yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense. You're like, oh, they're gonna grow up into wonderful partners, I'm sure. I know, and she's doing her best to combat that. You know, she keeps reminding them that no, I'm choosing to do this work, I'm putting this roof over our heads, I'm playing paying for this trip that we're about to go on, I'm paying for you to do this, have this experience that you're having, sports or whatever it is, you know, music lessons, go to a private school, there's all these things. Yeah, but it's just it's so uh gendered and so sexist and so infuriating. It is. And I think what makes it apart for me, what makes it so, is that kind of what we started with in our intros of one another, that the ability to feel think deep and wide, to be interested in something either very deeply and or you know, in these kind of multitude of ways, expand into new areas of growth and learning. What allows us it that's how we develop who we are as human beings. And it's like when we buy into this kind of gendered patriarchal system, we just become that function. We just become a function rather than being given the opportunity to develop as whole human beings. And then men never, they never develop the rest of it because they don't have to, like that part is all taken care of, so they can be that untethered mind and genius that just floats around because all their actual human bodily needs are cared for by the women in their lives. And it's like maybe that works for them. That's probably worked great for them. But it sure as heck doesn't work for me, and I don't think it works for women. That's why we want that's you know, why we fought for the vote. That's why we are still fighting across the world for little girls to be able to go to school, yeah, so that we can also that girls and women can develop into whole human beings, that we have all of these gifts inside of us that we can offer. Yeah. That might include having a family, caring for children, taking care of plants, doing all of these things. Like that is, it's not like that's a bad thing. That that still is very real, and that might be part of it, but it's like, but it's not like, oh, I'm gonna outsource all of this other stuff, all of my project all of my other gifts onto the man in my life, and he gets to carry that while I carry the cleaning and the cooking. I'm like, no. No. No. And it's yeah, it's I think that it does work for men in some sense, and the you know, the ones that we're talking about at least, where that's like they have to focus on their work and everything until they retire. And then at least of my parents' generation, I see a lot of men are pretty hopeless at retirement.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Yeah.

Linda 12:19

You know, because they don't have friends and they don't have hobbies. They've had a singular focus and everything else has been taken care of. They don't really know how to function well at home because they haven't spent time at home.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Yeah.

Linda 12:32

And they're used to home being taken care of, they don't even know because it's all behind the scenes. They don't actually even know what goes into it. That's such a good point. It's like it can it can function, it can work for a time in in life for them. But when that time naturally comes to an end, if that's your entire identity has been this singular focus and the other areas of your life atrophy, then at some point that comes home

When Women’s Work Gets Dismissed

Linda 13:04

to roost. And I think most people understand that for the great majority, even if we, and maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but I feel like for many people when they interview people who are on their deathbeds, very rarely do people say, I wish I had worked more. People wish that they had spent more time with the people that they loved. Like there are human experiences that I think get lost in there. And I think even then, for if we are living in this kind of gendered binary, that can be true for women as well. Because if we're holding the function, then the heart relationship may not have the same space to blossom because we get so busy with all of the things that we have to do, all of the responsibilities and the obligations that we carry of like managing a house rather than the you know, having time and space for the blossoming of the love and the actual relationships. Like those are the things that matter. And in both of those cases, that just gets completely wiped out. Yeah, I think that's a big part of the problem and why we see such a high divorce rate. It's because well, you know, and so many divorces are being instigated by women because what's in it for us? It's you know, especially if you're having to manage everything. I've so many women I've talked to, or the memoirs I've read, it's been both, where women have talked about, you know, at first I was like, oh, it'd be awful to have to go on vacation and manage all that by myself. But then I realized, wait, he didn't really do anything. Like I'm the one that always planned and packed and got the kids there. And even on the vacation, I was the one that did all the meals and bedtimes and all that stuff. And he realized, like, oh, he was company, but he wasn't really doing that much. You know, sometimes guys would be like on their phones back to work, you know, like trying to m manage things at their offices instead of being with the family. And they realized, like, oh, it's no, actually, this is totally fine to do on my own, which is really sad. It's really sad that somebody could not be there and not really be missed.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah.

Linda 15:10

Somebody you would think would be a critical part of the family. Yeah. And it's like they're missed because they didn't do anything, and two, because what you're describing is that they weren't even fully present anyway. You know, it wasn't like they were even there fully. They were on their phone, like managing somewhere else, dealing with something else. Like, yeah. If you can leave your family when there's a toddler and a newborn to go off to spend weeks in another country building a school or whatever good deed that was, and and and that goes okay for your family, then that's a problem.

unknown 15:42

Yeah.

Linda 15:43

You know, because you're you're not doing enough, is what I'm saying. Yeah, you're not contributing enough. I know you get it, but I feel like I might need to spell it out. You know, in case some man happens to wander into the Woman Uncage podcast who's like, what's she talking about? It's like if if you if you can get away with that without and your family survives just fine, and it's not hard or not an issue, then you're not contributing enough. Yeah, I would 100% agree. And I think that the fact that one would share this as like pride and something that is to be emulated. An example, yeah. An example of what, you know, it's just I think this is why a lot of women too get tired of having male teachers. Oh, yeah. Or, you know, any kind of guides in any way, shape, or form, because that's just the way that it's like this guy has probably never thought of it that way. Oh, I'm sure not. You know, like, and how sad that he never was like, oh, maybe this wasn't uh like, oh, I'm I'm doing the heroic thing, and my mission is more important than anything. And you're gonna take care of the the newborn and the toddler and all of those things that are less important so that I can go on my mission. Yeah. I mean, they don't write books about that, right? Well, they do, but it's not those kinds of books. But you know, it's like it's they don't usually make movies about a woman at home with a young child and a baby, right? But they do make movies about men on missions, but it doesn't mean that it's not an important part of life and also doesn't mean it's not your fucking responsibility. That's the other piece. It's like, yes, I get the mission is more glamorous and interesting. I know I've had young kids, you know. But you're like, there are times I wanted to go on the mission. No, there are times I just wanted to take a bath for God's sake. You know, it's like, yeah, it's really, really hard. It's not glamorous. It is, there's nothing, you know, you people can romanticize what it's like. And and sure, there are beautiful moments, of course, you know, the snugly little babies and all of that. And I miss that. And I'd go back and do it again for in a heartbeat. But it's not, you know, movie movie worthy or like something that you would necessarily talk about on a podcast, except for us in this context. But you know what I'm saying? It's just like I get that maybe it's a little bit dull, let's put it that way, for somebody who craves more. But there's a season to it, right? Too. Yeah. Like, why in that season of life would you think it's cool to go off and leave your wife who's still physically recovering from birth, too? That's the other piece. It's not like it's an easy process and she's got all of her strength and abilities back. And to me, I'm like, this is this is my problem with the hero's journey.

Beyond Campbell The Heroine’s Journey

Linda 18:33

And I think it was Joseph Campbell, right, who coined that term that that was the like all the stories that we hear, quote unquote, or that we read, or that been whatever, that they're all they follow the same arc. And that to me is extremely sad, if that's the case. Because one, I'm like, yes, maybe on the outside, that time of life or what's happening at home or whatnot is a little quote unquote dull. But you have no idea what is going on inside that woman. What are the feelings that she is experiencing? What is the identity shift that is occurring? What are all of these tender emotions of maybe mixed emotions of love and regret and like I, you know, all of the things that this is a huge life-changing experience for a woman. And to have it be that it's like, oh, that is somehow worth less is just so frustrating to me that we have to have these stories of like the man going out and battling all of the various dragons and things to come home and the wife is just there. I mean, that's why Maureen Murdoch wrote the freaking heroine's journey, was because Joseph Campbell was like, oh no, the woman's just there. That's where the man's trying to get to. Like the woman was just in the hero's journey. The woman is just the helpmeet. Like if we have no, we have no life, we have no center, we have no inner life, we have no journey of our own. And even if we do stay home in that thing, it's like there's a whole fucking journey that's occurring. It's just not this like outer journey. But I'm like, those are the stories that to me are so much more interesting because they're like, they're nuanced, they're deep, they're the ones we don't hear. And now, because we live in this kind of, you know, like the the patriarchal society, we're like, well, the answer is that we'll just put the women in the role of hero. Ta-da! You know, that and that becomes the story. It's like, okay, now we're gonna put the woman in the hero's journey, which okay, minor step in the right direction, sure. But the story is still the fucking same. And there's so many other stories. I refuse to believe that there are no other stories. And like if you look at the work, sorry, now I'm on my soapbox. If you look at it, keep going, preach, preach of Sharon Blackie, she'll write about this. And also like the other masculine archetypes that have kind of disappeared and been, you know, subsumed by this hero archetype, as if that's the only one. It's like, what about the the jester or the fool or the magician? You know, like all of these, if you look at the old fairy tales and the old ancient stories, there were so many other stories that were going on besides just the hero's journey. And I think it's so flattening also for human experience, for male experience, to just have it be this one kind of mega story that everything gets glommed onto and has to come out through this conveyor belt. And that that's that's the only way to make a human being is through the hero's journey. And I refuse to believe it. And I think it's problematic, and I think it's fucking boring. I agree with you. I agree with you, and I love I love your soapbox. I think there are also some really major developmental pieces missing from the hero's journey. We don't, generally speaking, we don't see the hero develop deep relationships with other people. You know, they might interact with other people, but it's usually a transactional kind of thing that's meeting whatever challenge they're facing. You know, it's like they might temporarily team up with somebody in order to get through a challenge, but then they tend to move on. It's usually a very much a solo kind of experience. Um, occasionally in like the movies, they'll be directing a team or something, but even then they're usually not that close to the team. You don't see unless there's some like romantic subplot or something. But even that tends to be shallow. It's more about sex and it's not about actual relationships and developed closeness or emotional, you know, experiences. Um, I think that's sadly, I mean, I think that's really true that that's what's missing a lot in our culture now is we have women who develop friendships and you know, close, close personal relationships with their sisters, with their friends or their cousins, um, and then want that also from the men in their lives, and it's really hard to find. You know, right now so many of my friends are single and dating, and you know, it's like they're just they're not finding what I have, and I'm so grateful for what I have, but also realize how rare it is. Yeah, you know that men who a aren't necessarily interested in being a hero, but also are relational and really care about relationships and about developing that side and being the soft place to fall, not just the broad shoulders that we can lean on or the protector or the provider. But you know, providing that mirroring and that soft place to be and that person who can hold it all.

unknown 24:02

Yeah.

What Hero Stories Miss About Love

Linda 24:03

I just don't see that very often in men. No, no. And I think for a very understandable reason, they've never been encouraged to develop it. In fact, it's usually the opposite, right? That, oh, you're a girl. Like that's the worst thing that you could be, you know, if you're a gay boy. Or you're gay. So gay. Yeah, exactly. You know, like that's the worst thing to be a soft place for someone to land is like the fastest way, I think, for a young boy to put a target on his back from other young boys. And the fact that that is kind of just an accepted rite of passage rather than a huge loss in our culture, I think is so telling. Because of course, men have the same capacity to be, yes, the broad shoulders and the protector and the soft place to land. Like we're all human beings. Like there's a place beyond gender that like all human beings share a lot of common ground. Great, but we don't value it in men, so we don't promote it. And and yes, there are men who manage to be that. I know several of them, but not but not without conscious effort. It's not like they just somehow escaped the cultural conditioning. They didn't, they've chosen to develop these parts of themselves, which really is heroic. To me, it's way more heroic than abandoning your wife and children to go off to another country to start a school. Yeah. And I'm not saying the school isn't a great idea. I think it is. Of course. You know, I just cannot imagine walking away from responsibilities at home, huge responsibilities, and thinking that that's completely okay. But it literally happens every day. Yeah, that's what's crazy. And it's like, I think on the other side, too, is that, you know, like you were saying, that men who have consciously developed that side of themselves or reclaimed that side of themselves or unearthed it, it's the same, you know, that's what women have been doing. We've been reclaiming that fiery, feisty, zesty, opinionated, strong girl that was inside of us, that was also has been tried to be culturally conditioned out. That good girl energy that is always the responsible, the one that is the one who self-sacrifices, that you know, is the wife that says, Oh, yes, honey, that's a great idea. You should go on your mission. We'll be fine. We'll be fine, exactly, as opposed to, are you fucking kidding me? What do you mean? You know, maybe she did say that and he didn't listen. I don't know. We don't know. We didn't hear her side of the story. Exactly. So I'm like, it could go either way, but I do know that there are women who would say that, right? Because the cultural conditioning goes both ways. Um it's like, but I think that there's been more space and voice, and or I'm saying there has been, that there's been a backlash to it um over the last five to ten years in a way that I was not expecting um it to be quite so ferocious. Um, but I still I don't think we're gonna be putting the cat back in the bag, you know. I do think that women have um we've done the work to reclaim those parts of ourselves that the kind of more stratified gendered world didn't allow us to develop, you know, like but I think that there's also there's been this like want for it. And I think that sometimes for men, maybe there isn't that, it's not as conscious even. And I wonder if they because they let go of it so early, it's like they may not even know that it's missing. Right. I think that's often true, actually, for men I've seen in my office who've, you know, when I was a therapist who knew something was missing, but we did they didn't know what. Yeah um, but I also think that how we define strength too plays a role in this is that we see that classic hero's journey as how men prove their strength. You know, that solo trek out against battling something, you know, something that's hard to overcome. And we define women as the quote unquote weaker sex. But I actually think if you can stay home alone with a newborn and a toddler while your spouse goes off and does this hero's thing and you survive, then man, you're pretty strong. Yeah. I mean, we all we all know that generally speaking, women are the stronger sex. I know. I mean, we all know it's true. It's so odd. If you think about what a woman puts up with on a regular basis in this culture and still manages to keep it together and create things and and hold her family together and all of that, then we have to be strong. It's like the the sheer degree of sexism that we face on a daily basis, and and the worst things, you know, assault, abuse in our own homes from our own families, not even out on the streets. But if you happen to go out to a workplace, you can have it there too. All the things that we manage to walk through on a daily basis and still achieve and still stay upright and still contribute.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Yes.

Linda 29:41

Things that would put most men under the table.

unknown 29:44

Yes.

Linda 29:45

You know, it's I I think about it a lot. And I just think, wow, we do not value that part of ourselves, the resilience, the sheer resilience that women have just to continue on. And that's true of most of us. It's you know, it's like no matter what your specific story is, being alive and being productive as a female, it requires resilience. Yeah, and determination, and determination and courage. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Yeah.

unknown 30:15

Yeah.

Linda 30:16

But it's it's undermined and it's undervalued because we don't see it as like, you know, well, she's not piloting a fighter plane. You know, it's like I know, and it's like I think this is why I feel like it'd be so I love that we're getting more of the memoirs and stories that are told from women's perspectives that are these kind of rich lived inner, outer experiences. And just because it's there, there's such beauty in seeing it reflected back in that way. And it's like I think that it's just the time of the hero's journey is coming to its end. I really do. Like I it it maybe it serves a developmental phase, but I think it's just we need we need something else. Like I think that the solutions to our societal problems don't lie in the singular solitary hero's journey the way that we are continuously shown that they will. You know, I think of like Armageddon or, you know, like all of these movies where it's like we're gonna go out and it's one man or the team that's gonna go solve all the problems. And we have that, like that's like this cultural ethos that we keep swimming in. And it's like, I don't think that's gonna solve a whole lot of anything. War doesn't tend to solve problems. No. And war is very much a part of the hero's journey, it's a lot part of the story. And I mean, very few problems have been solved by war, and many problems have been created by war, yeah. Not the least of which are lots of human lives lost.

unknown 32:02

Yeah.

Linda 32:02

You know, whereas, for example, in the like the Maggie Smith memoir or some of the others that we've come out recently, it's a woman who's facing real trials, you know, it's like the dissolution of a marriage that she wanted and was invested in, and then creating a life from what what's left, you know, and then building a new one on top of that. To me, I think it has a there's a richness to it as you described, but there's also there are pieces that are, what do I want to say, that are inspirational and turp that can be applied to other parts of life. You know, it's not just about being a woman whose marriage ends and what you do with your life after. It's more about like how do you create community? How do you stand tall in the face of this kind of adversity within the context of a family and still meeting the needs of the people around you? Like, how do you self-define? How do you look at your identity and and redefine that? Like those are applicable to so many areas of life. Yeah. And I feel like that's like the juicy part, you know, it's the how do I want to say this? It's like so often the hero's journey is like life in contrast to death. And you hear a lot about, you know, like the moments where you feel most alive or like somehow when you're closest to death. And I do feel like that causes and perpetuates so much more violence because there is like the actual juiciness of being alive is in battle, you know, like I just stabbed someone in the gut, and that's when I felt most alive. I'm like, wait, what? Like there just feels like there's this whole when I say like, like we've used the term pro-life, which I think, again, of course, I'm not using it how it is used, but it in in the conservative movement. But to be actually truly to be in the life enhancing, like that to me is like the where we can touch the pulse of life, where we can build upon, you know, we stand on the rubble of our lives and we pick up the pieces and we decide for ourselves who we want to be and how we want to build community and how we want to live in a way that, you know, most women, it's always about not just themselves, you know, even we were saying that within the context of the family, within the context of community. How can I be of service? How can I still and live my own life and develop as a human being and give my gifts to the world and be joyous and you know, all of these things? Like there's just such a different framework that I think that we miss when so many of the stories have to be told in contrast to death and destruction. Like that's where the hero emerges is in relation to death and destruction, right? Like, where what if there's something else that it's like, what if the heroine emerges in connection? Like connection to others, connection to life, connection to the planet, to the life force. To me, I'm like, more of those stories. Like, please, where the planet is screaming for them. Like, come on.

Choosing Connection Over Conquest

Linda 35:46

Yeah, and and what we know is that when women get more money, they tend to put it into their communities, they tend to share it with their family members. They tend to, you know, it's like the tide rises all boats. It's not it's not like a man who's like singularly defeated the dragon and comes home with the golden goblet or whatever, and he keeps it for himself. Yeah. A trillionaire. You know, he's like keeps it for himself and he thinks, well, what an asinine thing can I do with this money that I now have? Oh, I know I'll try to colonize a place out there and when we there's now people have enough homes here on planet earth, but what the heck? I'll like go out and colonize a planet or the moon or whatever. You know, whereas women tend to also think very practically.

unknown 36:34

Yes.

Linda 36:34

When women have more money, they think about problems that need to be solved and they tend to approach it in a very thoughtful, relational kind of way, and not in a, oh, I hope they erect a monument to me because I decided to take on this.

unknown 36:49

Yeah.

Linda 36:49

In fact, most of the time, women don't even want their names attached to it, they just want to see a problem solved, they want to see their communities healthier and happier and other women and children living better lives.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Yes.

Linda 37:03

And what like that's what we want. Like when we're talking about the like the how the heroes journey is annoying, it's like because those are the stories that I at least want to see reflected back. The stories with that level of heart, with that level of care, with that level of humanity. I'm not interested in a movie about colonizing Mars. I'm just I'm just not.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

No.

Linda 37:32

No. And you know what? There's so much that women do without even thinking too that it's particularly heroic. But it actually is. You know, it's like we support other human beings, grow them into life and grow them into amazing human other human beings. They they go on and make contributions that you know that we couldn't possibly make on our own necessarily, but there's that. But also in our relationships with each other, we help grow each other. You know, so much of what has happened in my life has only happened because I've had wonderful friends who have supported me and helped me be more me, including you. Thank you. But it's absolutely true. I would not be in this place that I'm in right now in my life if I didn't have you and several other really important friends.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Yeah.

Linda 38:24

We're like the wind behind each other's wings, you know, like the hold the space of what is possible for each other.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

Yes.

Linda 38:33

Yes. And it could look like from the outside, like, oh, well, Laura left this long marriage, you know, she left the area and she went off and forged a life on her own that was her, you know, was hers and all of that. And to a degree that's true, but I didn't do it by myself. Yeah. Thank God. I didn't have to. Yeah. And I think that's one of the like another one of the losses of this kind of mega, I don't even remember what they call it, like the overstory or like the thing that just it's it it because it is this kind of individual. You even talked about it earlier, that individual journey, because in order to develop a hero, like they're the main character energy, and they have to do it on their own with like a few little bit of help. But in reality, it's so much more joyous and meaningful to me when we get to have the journey together and to have, you know, people like you in my life that can are there and along for the ride and can share the the joys and the sorrows and to be there to be, you know, see the larger vision when I lose sight of it. Yes. Instead of strapping on the armor and being like, I must go out and battle the world, which occasionally I do that, and then I forget that I'm like, oh, there's this whole other way of being that is much, much nicer to myself and everyone else, like much more life enhancing and generative. Yeah. There's also that linear aspect to the hero's journey that we're sold, you know, that it's point A to point B. There are problems along the way, but you overcome them and you just keep going and then you eventually get there. And then, you know, a lot of times the hero does return back to point A, but they turn back having vanquished whatever it is or come home with whatever trophy or, you know, whatever. Um, whereas in our lives, like you just said, a lot of times we it's kind of it's not linear, it's more of a spiral. We lose track of it, we forget things, we need other people to help us hold it because it's easy to forget as we're making our way around the spiral again. You know, it's like we don't recognize it necessarily or we misinterpret things sometimes, usually because we're not seeing ourselves very accurately, and we need to have that mirrored back to us by people who love and respect us, you know, and that's all lost in the hero's journey.

Stories As Mirrors And Maps

Linda 40:58

And it's just really like I think it's heartbreaking. And as two people who are obviously two writers and readers, I have deep respect for the power of storytelling. Me too. And the stories that we tell matter because not only do they mirror back where our culture is and what we value, but they can also show us something different. They can be a mirror, but they can also be a guide. Oh, that gives me like the full like goosies, you know. It's like that's the power of story, is when we see a a new possibility, like you were saying, and a way forward that maybe we hadn't. Like they can they can mirror back parts of us that maybe we didn't even realize were there. Yeah. Yeah. When there's that, uh there are things that are possible, maybe achievements that are possible, but there are also ways of being that are possible that we don't necessarily know about until we see them in another human being.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Yeah.

Linda 42:11

And what a joy that is. I can't remember whose quote this is. So I apologize to whoever said it, and I'm probably gonna bastardize the quote anyway. Um, but it was like in your presence, I become more possible. And it's that energy. It's like that can be a person, that can be a story, that can be, you know, it helps us to envision something wilder and more interesting. Like, I think that's the part for me that I'm like the banality and the boringness actually of the hero's journey. You know, we talk about like oh, a woman who stays home and you know, maybe takes care of the children in this, you know, in this situation. Like her story might seem more boring on the surface. But I'm like, to me, the hero's journey, like the part that really chaps my hide is I'm like, God, it's so boring. It's just the same fucking story with a new person in the lead and a new thing in the way, but the whole thing is the same. Like, it's just like no wonder you could get AI to write that because it just follows the same trajectory. You know what I mean? It's like so true. Goodness gracious, give me something more interesting, give me something more new, more eccentric, more, you know, like I want biodiversity in my fucking stories. Like, I would love that. Like I want the unfurling of strange plants that I have never seen, or you know, like as a human being, as a metaphor, or maybe a reality, you know, like I want that's to me is so much more yeah, interesting and creative than just the same story with a new face and uh a new obstacle, but yeah, the framework remains. Yeah. Um yeah, well, and the other thing about the specific story around the guy leaving his wife and newborn and toddler is that you know, with newborns, you blink and you miss it. It's like they don't stay babies for long. And in yeah, and I said it was dull. And what I meant by that was it's just so you don't get a lot of sleep, you're doing the same tasks over and over again. It's very monotonous, yeah, a lot of maintenance, you know. It's like I remember my my cousin had her baby, my aunt said it took three adults just to maintain, like working all day long and one to maintain with one baby. You know, she had forgotten because she hadn't had a baby in a long time, and that's so true. But but on the other hand, too, you know, babies are an amazing miracle, they're a gift, and if you blink, you miss it. Like next thing you know, you've got a toddler running around, you know, saying, Why, why? Or saying, No. Yeah. And you never get to go back.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

You never get to go back if you miss it. Yeah, it's like, yeah, that time is just over.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Yeah, yeah.

Linda 45:04

Oh well, I know that brings us towards the end of our time. The time being over. I know exactly. We're like, that hour went by quickly, or that 45 minutes or so. Is there anything else that you would like to? Is there anything else on your heart or like to end or close with?

Writing A Different Story Together

Linda 45:24

Yeah, I'm just really glad we're having this conversation. I think it's really important um to be looking for other kinds of stories, to be noticing that our lives don't necessarily fit that pattern of the hero's journey. And maybe we don't want them to. Like, I think for a long time we thought that's what we wanted as women, that we wanted our own hero's journey. And I love those stories when a woman's like conquering the demon. Like, I'm so happy to have those stories, but that's not the full breadth of life, and it's not the only kind of story that can be told. And there are lots of other very fulfilling ways for us to be. Yes. And if we have those things, like part of what I'm hearing in myself is like sometimes I'll meet the lack of those stories with frustration. But then there's this other voice that's like, then write a different one. Like we all have that power, whether we're doing it through actual like writing storytelling, but also just through how we live our lives.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

Yes.

Linda 46:26

Like we're writing a different story. And support other women in doing the same. Yes. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

Hooray for season six. Yay! So exciting. All right, dear listeners. Until next time. Until next time.