Embracing Risk Even When It Scares You

Welcome to the final episode of season 5 of the Woman Uncaged podcast! 
In this episode, we start with a quote we can’t shake: “A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.” From there, we dig into the gender gap around risk taking. Men are often encouraged to try, fail, and try again. Women are more likely to be trained to be cautious, to act as the brakes in relationships, and to carry the invisible labor of safety planning. 

We also get vulnerable about how we are being called to embrace more risk when it comes to Woman Uncaged and what that brings up for each of us.  Along the way, we pull courage from women’s history, name the harm of patriarchal systems, and come back to what makes any of this possible: sisterhood, community, and a web of relationships that helps us keep going.

If this conversation lights something up in you, subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a review so more women can find these unfiltered conversations. What’s one risk you’re ready to take, even if your hands shake?

Mentions:

Golda Meir Quote: When PM Golda Meir was asked to place a curfew on women in Israel to help end a series of rapes, Meir replied “But it is the men who are attacking the women. If there is to be a curfew, let the men stay at home.”

Book: Romantic Outlaws: The Extraordinary Lives of Mary Wollstonecraft & Mary Shelley by Charlotte Gordon

Transcript

Season Finale Welcome And Updates

Linda 0:03

Hello everyone and welcome to Woman Uncaged. My name is Laura Gates Lepton, and this is episode 19 of season five, which is our final episode for the season. We have mixed feelings about that, Linda and I. And I am here with my beloved bestie, amazing woman, incredible feminist, fun, wild. So just wonderful, all around wonderful Linda Katz. And as always, I'm just so happy to be here, Linda. I look forward to all week. It's just so much fun to be able to have the time with you and just to talk about whatever. And I just, I, you know, we were talking not too long ago about some of the things we appreciate about our relationship. And part of it is that anything goes, you know, I just love how we can talk about anything and everything. And that I get to be with you in all of your wonderfulness, your wisdom, your ridiculous funniness, your snarkiness, your well-resourcedness. You're always coming up with things just to share with me that are amazing I haven't seen or heard about. Um, all of those things. And so thank you, Linda. Thank you for being here with me today. Oh, it's so wonderful to be here with you today, Laura. I'm here with my beloved Bestie and co-conspirator and wise and wild woman extraordinaire, Miss Laura Gates Lupton. And I can't believe that we are on the ultimate uh episode of season five. I remember when we started this, like the very beginnings of launching our podcast. And it has just been such a joy. It has been a highlight of my week for the last two and a half years to be able to come on and to have these conversations. And, you know, I think it says something to you, your depth and wisdom and openness and deep thinking and reflection to be able to come here week after week. And we have lots of shit to talk about. It's really quite amazing. I remember at the beginning, we're like, are we gonna run out of stuff? Do we need to have guests? No. And no. We have lots of exciting things cooking. And if you are, when we're on break, if you want to follow along and want a little bit more of Laura's uh energy and vibe and wisdom and humor and good-natured lightheartedness, all of that good stuff in your life, make sure that you are on her Substack, which is called Good With Money. It's how you can keep up with her because she's not really on the social medias. So make sure that you subscribe. It would also be a great time to pick up Linda's book from Amazon Homecoming. It's a it makes for a very nice summer read. You'll want to take your time with it. You will not want to rush your way through it, but it would be a perfect time to do that too.

Why Risk Is Gendered

Linda 3:07

Well, today we are finishing up season five, talking about embracing risk and what that means, how this topic came up, how it might apply to women, because this is something that I have been exploring in my own life. And my sense is that culturally and societally, the way that we speak about risk for women is very different than how we speak about risk for men. Men are oftentimes encouraged to, you know, fledge and leave the nest and take bigger risks and fail and fall down and get back up again. But with women, I think that oftentimes we don't, we don't receive that same story. We don't receive that same big invitation to take those risks with our lives, whether they're the internal risks or the big external risks. And instead, we are often left holding the pole in heterosexual relationships of being the cautious one, the one who puts the brakes on things, the one who says no, even if that may not be entirely true to our personality. So where would you like to begin, Laura? What's what's coming up for you with this topic? I think it'd be awesome if you shared the quote that you shared with me a few times, um, that I have really loved, that just has so much meaning. And I think it'd be really helpful to share that right up front so we could sort of wrap that into the context here. Let's do it. So

The Ship In Harbor Quote

Linda 4:45

this is one of my favorite quotes that I can't remember where I first saw it. Uh, there's a few different versions of it, but according to the Google AI overview, which I did not check if it's accurate, it might have been popularized by author John A. Shedd. And the quote is a ship is safe, a ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for. So I'll read it one more time. A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for. I just love that so much. It just makes me think about all the messages we get as women about keeping ourselves safe. And it's always a personal project, you know, it's like there's very little societally that's here to keep us safe. Um, and it also makes me think about raising children or pets or you know, things where you're responsible, you know, maybe even um, you know, in some stages of life taking care of elderly parents, there can be this desire to create safety for everyone around you. Um and and but that's not what people are really for either. Yeah. Can you say a little bit more about that? I think that it's really hard to grow without taking risks. That I I don't see, I honestly don't see how you can. Um, and so like in raising kids, especially because we homeschooled, it was super important to me to allow my kids to take risks and sometimes guide them toward risks. You know, there's more safety uh when you're a kid if the parents are around, you know, to to let them do things. And some of those things were really, really hard for me. So for example, I had a child who was um assigned male at birth who loved to go backpacking and go up in the woods behind our house all the time. We had the largest land management area in New York State right behind our house. But I had a child, another child who was assigned female at birth who wanted to do the same thing. And I I allowed it because it it just didn't seem fair not to, but it scared me every single time. Yep, you know, and so every single time I'd be counting the minutes until that kid came back from the woods because it's just like there's no cell coverage up there, and there's a dirt road that runs through, and these good old boys in their pickup trucks drive through and with their guns, you know, their gun racks, and it it was terrifying to me, but it's like letting a kid do that though, and growing the skills and learn, you know, like being able to handle themselves is super important, and I did not want to discriminate based on gender either. Yeah, you know, so it was growth for me too. It's not just growth for the person involved, it's like growth for me too. That's a lot of growth for you, and a lot of discomfort. I'm so uncomfortable, so uncomfortable. But I I mean, would you agree with that? Do you do you think growth is possible without some degree of risk? I don't think so. I mean, whether that risk is in again, like the internal, like some when I and when I say that, I mean taking kind of emotional risks, bearing our heart can be a risk, showing up as we who we truly are can be a risk uh in relationship to allow another to witness us can be a risk. Um and so, and the those external risks of going out and really testing your strength, which again I think is something that that's really in part the hero's journey. And I think the name in itself betrays our thoughts on it. It's like, oh, no, that's for the boys, that's for the dudes, you know, they get to go out and test their strength. Um, but I think that we need both, and I think that we grow in different ways um with both of those pieces. I think that the the inner ones are where we tend to move women and like men are not allowed, like that's not where they're allowed to play in that sandbox. They're supposed to be out on that other journey. Um, but I also love what you said around the structural pieces of safety and how that really does impact the level of freedom that we as women can have and feel and use in this society. And how again, it becomes this personal thing, like you have to make very specific choices that are meant to like, oh, make sure that you're safe when that, you know, that may not be what you really want to do. Like that that may not be where your heart and soul is.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Yeah.

Linda 9:42

It's

The Safety Math Women Must Do

Linda 9:43

a whole added level that has to come in. It's not even just making the decision of um, do I dare drive across country by myself, for example? Um, you know, and and think through the logistics of that. There's you have to think through the safety of that too. It's like, oh, well, I'm gonna be stopping at rest stops by myself. What if I break down? What if I get lost? What if, you know, all those things that guys just really don't think about.

unknown 10:08

No.

Linda 10:09

That was hammered into my head by my father. Yes. Yeah. You know, yeah. Yeah, even the first time I went on a long, maybe not even the first time, it's maybe the first time my sister was aware of me going on a long, like multi-state drive. She was like, Okay, never get out of the car at a rest stop unless you see other cars. Like, don't, you know, pull in and like choose like giving me all these things. I'm like, I I'm it's cool, it's cool. I know what I'm doing. I do this all the time. Yeah, you know, and I if I go to a rest stop and I don't see other women getting out of cars, I don't get out.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Yeah.

Linda 10:41

Which also sucks because if you really have to pee, it sucks to sit there and wait for other women to show up. But you know, especially the ones that are more isolated, yeah. I'm just not gonna take that risk.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Yeah.

Linda 10:52

Yep. That's so uh, and I think that that's it's something that's really good to highlight in terms of what we're up against in the external world structurally when we talk about these pieces around taking risks with our lives. Um, and doing them in a calculated way, right? Like doing the cross-country road trip or multi-state road trip, like that's a risk. But then you're like, but as I do this, I'm also gonna make smart decisions for myself. Like I'm gonna be aware of my surroundings because that just also, as much as it sucks, is the state of the world. Um,

Growing The Podcast Beyond Word Of Mouth

Linda 11:30

but this was something that came up when I read the quote to Laura, because Laura and I have been realizing that we've had this thing that's been coming up for the both of us when it comes to the podcast. Because you know, this is an area where we are unfiltered. It's literally in the in our little in our tagline, unfiltered conversations. And it we pour a lot of ourselves and our our hearts, our true thoughts, our true beliefs into it in a way that is fairly public and off the cuff. You know, we're not we're not sitting here crafting uh what we're gonna be talking about ahead of time, thus the unfiltered nature of the conversations and how they can drift off on little tangents and we love that. Uh, but we both realized that there was a little bit of a a break pedal that was happening when it comes to sharing the podcast in a larger way. Because to date, as Laura said when we were celebrating, you know, our 3000th download is that this podcast has grown entirely organically by word of mouth. Like we have not really marketed it at all, hardly, like maybe a couple, like a Facebook post or sharing it with a friend. But the reason it's grown is because women are sharing it with other women in their lives and tuning in to listen. And to us, in some ways, this is us been safe at the harbor, right? We're in the we're, you know, we we kind of we float out a little bit, but we still have the anchor down safely in the harbor, and then we float out a little bit into the ocean, but we can always come back because what that also means is that we haven't really gotten a lot of haters. We haven't um because when women share it with other women, we tend to share it with people that we think it would resonate with. And Laura and I are both in a season where there's a part of us that wants to grow, that wants to expand the message, especially at this time in our society and wants to have more impact, right? You know, because we both want to have more impact. It's hard to do that if you're staying in the harbor. And it's like, so this is this is part of how, you know, like, and what happens, what happens in you? Let's talk about that, and then I'll share kind of what happens in me as we think about embarking on this journey of like pulling up the anchor that we've safely set in the harbor, where it's like, oh, we get some waves, but like they're small and they're not too scary. And if there's a storm, we can always be like, we're hunkering down. To be like, I'm heading out to the open sea. I mean, a few things happen for me. Um, one of them is that people in my family don't listen to the podcast, and I don't really want them to. Um, you know, it's like I don't necessarily want them knowing everything I think. And I do share stuff here, like I don't talk about with my family. We're very different politically. I don't think any of them, even if they started listening to it, would continue because it's just not their cup of tea. But there's part of me that's just like, I don't want that. Um also I have a friend who has had a stalker and she's had issues, and she's coach, she's pretty out there. Um, she's you know, very public. And man, I don't want that. Yeah, I don't want that. You know, I let women have legit been threatened. Um, so you know, things like that, it's scary to me.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah.

Linda 15:02

Um, I had I know somebody else who's now on the TSA watch list, and she's been super outspoken and she travels a lot, and it's a real pain in the ass.

unknown 15:12

Yeah.

Linda 15:13

So there are some really practical things that I would like to avoid. Um, you know, and so that's part of what comes up for me.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Yeah.

Linda 15:24

It's not so much. I mean, I stand by the things I say, so it's not so much that. It's not like, you know, I want to hide those things necessarily, but I do enjoy them being in front of a more curated audience. Yes. I have to admit. How about how about for you? Yeah, I mean, I think that I will I agree with everything that you shared. And I think that that curated audience, that's like it's like a little safe bubble, you know what I mean? It's like, and so and the safe bubble is amazing, and we love you, our dear listeners. And we do, it's it's hard to have growth, like we were saying, when we stay in the safe bubble. It's um, I think for me, there is that sense of like that comes up in my body when I think about that. Because I realized this a few weeks ago, because we have been talking a while back, you know, setting up a website for Woman and Cage, like starting to share about it more publicly on social media. And what I realized was that I was like, you know, every time I, you know, the occasional times when I like share a new Substack, I'll put a little post in my Instagram stories and it won't be a big deal. And I was like, we release a new podcast every week, and I never do that. That's interesting. Hmm. And I think it is because what we share here is a little bit more controversial. It's definitely uh more unconventional when you're not writing, there's no chance to go back and edit. There's no, we're not tone policing ourselves in any way. It's like this is just who we are. Um and so just recognizing that and the the kind of push-pull there of, but what I want is to have is to take those bigger risks in my life. Like I do want that growth. I do think that a lot of the things that we talk about, I would love to have more women involved in these conversations. I think that's really like the the core piece, is what I love when I hear we hear from listeners and they're like, yeah, it feels like I'm just it part of the conversation. And that's really what we want is we want to have these conversations, we want to expand them. We want uh more women to question the status quo. And I because I love the moments when I'm like, oh, I never had that thought before. So many times through the process of our doing this, we'll be like, I've never thought of this before. But actually, now that we're talking about it, you know, like having more of those experiences and and it it is like it's scary. Like there's definitely like some tightness and anxiety that comes up in my body. And I remember kind of circling back to when we first started, both of us were like, the only reason we can do this is because we're doing it together. Totally. Well, and I even flew down to Texas to launch the podcast, and we were literally together. We're like clinging to each other. So we're like, here we go, it's happening. We'd recorded four episodes ahead of time, and then we're like, Oh, do we dare hit the butt? So we've come a long way, guys. We've come a long way, but now we've come up against one of these areas, right? Of this, where I think both of us want to take, despite the fears, despite the very practical reasons why not, in some ways, we want to expand that comfort zone. We want to move out a bit more. And yeah, it's just leaving the safety of the harbor. It can look many different ways, but it's it, I think it always comes with a little dose of yeah. Well, it's funny because I was asked sometime in the last two weeks um in a program I was in, like, what's we were all asked, this group was like, what's holding you back? What do you think, what fear or whatever is getting in your way? And my first thought was fear of visibility. But then I realized like it's that's really not it because you know, years ago I had a job where I was finding adoptive homes for kids in foster care. And during adoption month, I would be on TV, on the radio. I also wrote a newspaper column every month or every week, or so I don't even remember now, but you know, in Rhode Island, which is a small state. So it's like that's a lot of visibility, a small state. And it was great. It didn't bother me at all. And then later, when I had kids, I ran the um fresh air fund for the northern for Northern Rhode Island. So it's the northern half of the state where we were finding hosts for kids from New York City to come up and experience the summer outside of the city. And that I also was a lot of visibility. I was, you know, I was I used all the contacts I have from the other job and I drummed up a lot to the point where my kids would go somewhere and they'd say, There are there going to be reporters there. I'm not going if they're reporters. Like I'm a bit of a celebrity, I can't help. Kind of a big deal. That was actually really fun for me. So I was thinking about that and thinking, okay, it is not a fear of visibility. It really is around like, no, but you don't get haters when you're finding homes for kids. You don't get haters when you're finding like a fake free vacation for a kid in the city. You know, it's like you just doesn't happen. Um, so it really is about that. It's about being assertively out there with a broader audience about these things that I really do believe. Yeah. Well, I remember for me too, I had similar fears come up when I first, you know, when I published Homecoming. And I I remember. I was like, oh my god. I remember one specific thing you were really worried about in your book. You were like, I don't know. Oh, that yeah, the what there was one line that I was like, I almost waffled and took it out at the last minute. And I was like, do I believe this to be true though? I wasn't gonna let you do that. Yeah, thank you. That's why you that's why you need a good editor, friends. Um but it is, you know, there is I think what comes up for me, like just in having this conversation, is that patriarchal bullshit, misogynistic beliefs run deep. So there's because there is the again, the external very real things that are, you know, potential consequences. But I also think that there is, at least for me, this is us sharing our opinion. Right. This is this is what we believe. These are the things that matter to us. These are the things that we would like other people to be invited into the conversation to talk about and think about, etc. And that is what there is has been and now is a growing force of people that think that women should not be allowed to do that, should not be allowed to take up space or have a voice in public conversations. Like women are supposed to be back in the kitchen, taking care of the kids, not leaving the house, you know, all of those things, and not publicly asserting what we believe to be true, how we see the world, what our experiences of life are. And I think that makes it really hard because some of these things, it's like I also think of, you know, sharing stories where it's like, oh, I've got back, I've got like a litany of facts that I can pull upon. But when it comes to things that we think and believe, that may not always be the case, right? It's just like, nope, this is this is what feels true for me. This is what I think and believe, and I'm gonna share it with other people. Um, and I think it's yeah, it's it's hard. And I think especially it's like this double-edged sword, because at this time, like talking of this risk that we're interfacing with, it feels more important than ever to be having more of these conversations, and it feels riskier than ever. Yeah. Because in our lifetimes at least. Yes, yes, exactly. And in this place, right? In our lifetime, in this specific place. Like there are people across the world and women across the world who that is extremely much more the case. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We don't want to say like no one has suffered as we have suffered.

unknown 23:58

Yeah.

Linda 23:59

That's not what we're saying. No, but it it does, it does feel risky.

Bullying Memories And Fear Of Haters

Linda 24:04

Um, and I don't I realized I've never asked you this question before, but have you did you experience any bullying when you were in school when school? Have you had any bullying? Um not personally. I don't remember being I don't remember ever being bullied. I remember witnessing bullying. Um, but I don't remember ever being bullied. But I do remember feeling very like an outsider, especially during the time when I had my eating disorder, because it was just like walking around like a, you know, a poster child of something's going on with this one. Um so yeah, I don't I don't know in that way.

unknown 24:49

Yeah.

Linda 24:50

How about for you? Yes. Okay. I have.

unknown 24:53

Yeah.

Linda 24:54

Um, and what happened to me was that when I was in eighth grade, there was a kid who had come out, he's a year ahead of me in school, he'd come out as bisexual, which when our school was just, I mean, you couldn't we really couldn't deviate in any way from being white and heterosexual and better off if you're a man too, you know, for football player especially, or a jock of some kind. Um and the football team had, or at least some of the football team, had cornered this kid at the end of the hall and they were about to beat him up, and I jumped in the middle of it to defend him and was able to argue with them long enough till somebody got the vice principal and other people and shut the whole thing down. Um, but I never like I never got away from that the whole time I was in school. I was called Leslie Laura and had ice balls thrown at my head and you know, all kinds of things. Um just that never I never got away from it until I left. And I left a year early, as many people know. I left after my junior year of high school. Um and that was one of the reasons. Not not the only reason, but one of the reasons.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Yeah.

Linda 25:56

And so I think for me, you know, even though I'm an adult now and even though I have certainly stood up to some difficult things in my adult life, there's also a little bit of that, you know, that imprint of what it's like to just have people who are physically bigger than you and who feel stronger than you, and you know, to to threaten and and cause harm, yeah, you know, relentlessly. Relentlessly. And so that's part of it too, is that so when I think about haters, I don't necessarily see them as like faceless whatever out there. I think about those guys. I want to go kick them in the nuts. Thank you. I would like to too. So a couple of them have tried to friend me on Facebook, and I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? You're like, oh no, we're not doing that, honey. It never, ever, ever. Like you may have forgotten or think it was all child's play, but I haven't. Yeah. Oh. I'm sorry that happened. Thank you. I'm sorry too. I mean, I'm not sorry I stopped the fight. No, I'm not. That part, that part, I'm like, now you can understand why Laura is an amazing human being. It's it's been there from the beginning, my friends, uh, from being very young. Uh and why to have her in your corner, literally, like, is so valuable. Like it brings tears to my eyes because even at great cost to yourself, you stand up for what's right and you protect those who are, you know, vulnerable, like more vulnerable than you are. And yeah. And it's, I feel like you've done that in pretty much your whole life from all of the jobs and all of the things that you've done, you know, like um, yep. And I wish that it didn't have such a cost. Like, I wish that we lived again, wish we lived in a world where that was not one needed, especially not now as adults, but I feel like we have great big adult bullies um all over the place now. Yeah, no, and they feel like they're free to do whatever, and they seem to have a hell of a lot of time on their hands in the comments. You know, it's like a friend of mine posted something on Instagram, and the comments were incredible, and these guys, they're just one right after the other. And I'm like, how do they have all this time? I just don't understand. Because they have no life. Because they're very sad people in reality, yeah. Apparently. But you know, it's like I remember when we first started the podcast and we talked about it, and we were like, it's gonna happen. Like, we're gonna get haters at some point. It's gonna happen. And maybe that's part of it too, because it hasn't in two and a half years, and so it kind of builds up over time that thought of like, well, when is it gonna happen? Not inviting that, not wanting that, but just wondering, you know. Yeah. This is this is why it's so hard to pull up the anchor, right? In all the various areas of our lives, like, and maybe there's a way that we can do it more gently, and maybe that's an invitation too. That it's like maybe the answer isn't that you leave the harbor and then you're like set sail across the fucking Atlantic in the middle of like hurricane season. You know what I mean? Like, maybe there's something that we don't have to go from zero to a hundred or from, you know, like simply word of mouth to a hundred, there can be probably some more incremental steps. And I wonder if that can be part of it too, is that cultivating that greater sense of inner safety and stability and getting our sea legs under us, like whatever the risks got risks are that we might be interfacing with in our life, of like, okay, we're gonna go out, we're gonna, you know, go a mile or two and then we're gonna come back. You know, all of those things. I think that um maybe there's some some room for that too, so that we can um remember how capable and resilient and yeah, all of those things that we all are. Yeah, I do think remembering your own capabilities, thinking about times when you have taken risks and and how whether it's gone well or not, um, that can be super helpful because it just it reinforces that part of your identity. Yes. You know, because it's easy to get caught up in the, oh my god, look at these things happening to other women. I don't want that to happen to me. I'm scared. But to to think about just like, oh, but I'm I am capable. I have taken risks. There are things that I've done that other people would think were really hard. Yep. Yep, you know. Yeah, remembering that. I love what you said, like remembering that is a key part of who we are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which we're not necessarily as women encouraged to do. Yeah, not at all. Yeah. We're we're I think we're taught to see ourselves as kind of like the weaker sex, vulnerable, like fragile, needing protection, you know, all of these things. And you know, it's kind of reminds me of um like there's like the kind of inner teenager that comes up in me that like rebel. It's like, I will not fucking let the bullies win. Like, you know, the sense of like don't preemptively, like we spoke about before, um, you know, earlier uh after Trump's win and inauguration, it's like not to uh preemptively, what's the word I'm looking for? Like accept it or obey, don't preemptively obey. And it's like there are these ways, like that it sounds really nice, but in practiced reality, it's it's really difficult because when you have these bullies and these forces and violence and all of that stuff, there is a part of each of us that's like, hell no, I'm gonna retreat, I'm gonna retreat into my shell and I'll come out when times are more favorable. Yeah, I'll hide for four or eight years. Exactly, however long it takes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. But I think it's important to remember that we've faced all kinds of things, and it can be, it doesn't even have to be like grand adventure kinds of things, but you know, helping a loved one through an illness and having to advocate in a system that does not want you to, that's that takes courage. And you know, anything where you're standing up against a system, whether it's a school system, a hospital system, a governmental system, patriarchy, you know, anything where you're like going against the grain, that takes courage. Yes. Yeah. And it is risky. It is risky because you you do find out who's with you and who's not and who your friends are and who aren't. And yeah, there's so many things that you learn along the way when you take a stand for something or against something. Yeah. It reminds me of when I read um, I think it wasn't last year or earlier this year.

Borrowing Courage From Women’s History

Linda 33:26

Oh, what was the good was called? Something Romantic Outlaws. I was thinking of the same thing a few minutes ago. That's because that's one of the that book really helps me too when I'm feeling like, oh, this is a big risk. But to think about those women and the risk that they took at a time when it was just absolutely not heard of.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Yeah.

Linda 33:46

It's a book for those who don't know, it's uh like a dual biography of Mary Wollstonecraft and Mary Shelley, who is her daughter, even though they didn't actually know each other because her mother died in like shortly after childbirth. But, you know, yeah, this feminist icon, and again, like the the courage and the fortitude and the difficulties of taking a stand. And this was in the freaking 1700s. I mean, there was this we got it easy peasy in comparison, you know, like that was completely bucking the trend. But you read, like I was thinking that too, because it's you read it and it's like it's like having that like liquid courage juice. You're like, shit, yes. Like, and think of all the women who will come after. Like it's like the same we were talking about. Um, who was it? Was it not Susan B. Anthony where they put the I voted sticker on B. Anthony on her grave in Rochester, New York. Yep, every election day every year. People go because she didn't get to vote. She worked so hard for women to get the vote, and she never got to do it. But yeah, there were so many things that women have done in really incredible circumstances, no support whatsoever in a much tighter view of what was okay for women. At least it does it does help me to realize that that has loosened up a lot, even though it feels right now like they're trying to shut us down and put us in this trad wife bucket kind of thing. You know, it's like, oh my God. But but yeah, it's really helpful to read those things and to hear about what women have been up against for a really long time. You know, and still did it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Yeah.

Linda 35:32

It's like we're all passing the torch to one another in the ways that we can use our gifts, the way that we can use our voices, and that looks different for every person, every woman and non-woman who's hopefully involved in this fight with us. Um, but yeah, I just I love like it's almost like that. I kind of want to do like a ceremony for us of like, let's pass the torch to all of us so that we can carry these things forward and continue to yeah, move the needle forward into greater equality and freedom and respect for all human beings. All of us and just respect for matriarchy, like for and the fight in some ways. I don't really like using that word, but unfortunately it fits for more matriarchal systems and systems that honor the rhythms of women and nature because those are they go together. It's and what we have is so outside of all of that. Um, but all the ways that women uh are swimming upstream every single day. I mean, we talked about taking a road trip across country and having to deal with the risks of that, but you know what? Just living in a home with a man carries risks, it's like they, you know, so many men turn out to be abusive and violent. And and it's not always predictable. It's not you can't say who's gonna end up in that situation and who isn't.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Yeah.

Linda 37:04

Um, but there's so many just every single fucking day, the risks that we face. Yes. Just trying to live our lives.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

Yeah.

Linda 37:16

And like how we need to fortify ourselves, you know, just hearing you say that too is this like, no wonder we're so many women are very exhausted. Yeah. Because it's like just going out is like you gotta arm her up and you know put on this kind of different way of being and living that maybe is not actually true to who you are, just to kind of move through the world. Yeah. And imagining a world where that isn't necessary, it's kind of like the how in COVID, people who are more introverted were like, I don't have to leave the house. Like, I can just work at home and like I don't have to put on my extroverted suit and go make small talk and like, you know, all the things that you just unconsciously kind of do to go be in a more extroverted world. Like, it's kind of like that. It's like, oh my gosh, what might be possible if we didn't have to do that? Like, if we could just move into the world with greater security, confidence, a sense of naturalness, a sense of softness without having to kind of be there's a little bracing, you know, like that's something I've been working on in myself is like how to let go of some of that bracing and trust the yeah, all the vigilance, yes. But yeah,

Emergency Brake Living And Women-Only Safety

Linda 38:40

bracing and vigilance. I think those two things go together. But yeah, I'm sorry I cut you off. No, go go for it, yes. Well, I just think that I always think of it like if we didn't, it'd be like driving and suddenly think realizing you had the emergency brake on the whole time and just being able to release the emergency brake and be like, wow, this car can go fast. Like, I had no idea, no idea at all. But we're walking around with the emergency brake on because we're so fucking vigilant all the time and stressed, embraced, and just having to be aware in a way that when I talk to men about it, they're like, What? What time? No clue, no fucking clue. Yes, oh my god, I'm just like mind blown. That is the as much as I love the ships in harbor, like I love that image, but driving around with the emergency brake on just hits something like in my core where it's like, oh, why is this feel like I'm like burning out my engine? Yeah, why is why is the car just not quite going? And you're like, yeah, because you got the e-brake on, and that's what we are doing. It's like, man, can we create conditions for women to take off the emergency brake so we can fucking drive? Like, let's go. Yeah. Yep. Years ago, they used to have the Michigan Women's Music Festival or women's music. I don't remember what the title was. This is a long time ago. I never got to go. I always wanted to. Friends of mine would go, and that's the thing they would talk about. It was this piece of huge private piece of land in Michigan, and it was just women-only space. Yeah, and you could walk around topless, you could do pretty much whatever. They had workshops, massage tables, like all this music, amazing stuff. And it was completely safe because it was women only. There were no men there. And it was for a few days, and the women I knew that would go would say it was just incredible, like to be able to camp out and not think about whether somebody's gonna come and try to get into your tent. Or you know, like there were just no predators, essentially. Yeah, there were no predators, so they could totally relax and just be themselves. Yeah, like the look on your face is how I used to feel about it. It's like I just want that so much. Like, I can't even really honestly imagine what it would feel like to have that. Yeah, just like the like it felt like a softening, like I just felt my shoulders kind of melting away from my ears, like the the opposite of bracing, like a relaxing, yeah. And what a sad world we live in when we consider, like, and for very justifiable reasons, that half the population are predators. Like, and the the other path of the population, what does that make us? We're the prey. Exactly. This is why women were like, Yeah, I'll take the bear, I'll take my chances with the bear. You know, and guys are so offended, they're like, But I'm a good guy, but we can't tell. And some of you say you're a good guy when you're not. So the words don't mean shit. We can only tell if you're a good guy after by watching you for a long period of time. Yeah, it takes a long time to establish that you're a good guy. And some of you are really good at faking it, yeah. So, you know, it's like, and a lot of guys who say that they're nice guys are only nice when we're pleasing them. Yeah. The second you stop pleasing them, they're no longer nice. Yeah.

unknown 42:09

Yep.

Linda 42:10

So yeah, it's like I could get really fired up about this because I'm so damn sick of it. Yes. Because again, it's like there's all of these un unspoken, unseen, there, it's like both a weight and like a constrictive, you know, like jacket or something that you have on that women just have normalized. It's been normalized that we just walk around with them. But it's like imagining a world where we don't need to and getting to experience that for a short period of time. It's like, uh, yeah, like how nice. And it's like, we don't want to get rid of all men, but then we need to create something different. We need to create systems where that is, you know, the norm. Like that, yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I don't even have the words. I'm just like trying to-I can't remember where it was. It was there was a woman leader, I want to say it was in Dira Gandhi, but I don't know. Um, I'd have to look it up. But anyway, there was a place. This is a while ago. There were sexual assaults happening at night. And so they were saying, Well, well, women can't go out at night. And the leader was like, they're not the ones doing the sexual, no, the men can't go out at night. Like, you know, and I was like, Oh my god, that's so brilliant and so true. It's like we're the ones that are constantly in cages to so-called protect ourselves because of what other people are doing instead of them having to deal with some kind of restriction.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

Yeah.

Linda 43:46

They can't control themselves.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Yeah.

Linda 43:48

Yeah. I know. But I that's why I love that so much. When she was like, What? No. The women can go out at night, it's the men who can't. They're the problem. That's the thing. It's like they're the problem. Like, don't put it on. Yeah, but there's so many things. Like, what was she wearing? Was she drinking? You know, always. Where was she? Where was she? It's like, oh, you know, this whole like policing of women's behavior as somehow being natural. When I'm like, no, that's just a patriarchal construct of bullshit of living in a violent society. Violent and overly sexualized. It's like when people, when women are just seen as sexual creatures no matter what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

Yeah.

Linda 44:35

You know, it's like the whole breastfeeding in public thing drives me insane when people like sexualize that. It's like, what do you think breasts are actually for? They're actually there to feed the young. You know, they're not here for your entertainment. Yeah. I mean, is it nice? Are they nice in other contexts? Yes, I enjoy mine, but you know, but they're they were here to feed my babies and they did that quite well. And so, you know, this whole idea of women can't show themselves while they're feeding their babies, you know, it's just, I just, oh, it drives me insane. Yeah. You know, just everything is so oversexualized. And then again, it's like all of the things, like all of the ways that we keep us, like how, not how we keep ourselves, how others keep us in these cages, how these systems keep us in these cages.

Take Risks While Changing Systems

Linda 45:24

And it's almost like I know we're coming up towards the end of our conversation, but it's making me also wonder where it's like we can't wait for the circumstances necessarily to take risks. But how do we potentially recognize what are the things that are in place in the external world that make it more difficult for women to take those risks and work to also dismantle them? Yeah, I think it has to be both. You can't, and definitely these are things we're going to talk about in the next season, but we can't wait for conditions to change because they won't.

unknown 46:03

No.

Linda 46:03

It's like, and you know, it's there wouldn't be gay marriage if gay people weren't willing to step up and show that they were having loving relationships for a very long time.

unknown 46:13

Yeah.

Linda 46:14

Or we said, okay, gay marriage is now a thing.

SPEAKER_02 46:17

Yeah.

Linda 46:18

Right. Yep. So it wouldn't have happened if everyone stayed in the closet. It just doesn't work that way. And so, you know, for for people like me, for example, who have chosen to leave a long-term marriage and to do it somewhat publicly, to show like a woman can be fine on her own, you know, it's like to take those risks to do those things. It's really important because otherwise everyone looks heteronormative in this prescribed way that they want us to be.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

Yeah.

Linda 46:47

So I think, but it has to be both. There has to be also a look at systems and dismantling systems, because otherwise it really is like driving around with the emergency brake on all the time. And we can give ourselves compassion, I think, and understanding and create shared spaces where there is commiseration and fertile loving ground from which it does feel a little bit safer to go out into the greater world and do these things. It's like, you know, I think sometimes, you know, at least for myself, there can be that critical part that's like, why are you so scared of this? Like, why is it, you know, like other people do it, versus just like having that compassion of like, yeah, of course it's scary. Like this is these are the reasons why it's scary. And but that doesn't mean don't do them. Right. Well, and I think building the web of relationships, which we've often talked about, so that you have other women in your corner, but also to debunk that horrible thing that gets thrown at us all the time about how, well, women are in competition with each other. So women aren't, you know, they don't support each other. And I hate that so much. Um, and it's so how convenient, right? It's like, yeah, we're all in competition to have a man. It's like, no, we're not. So nowhere in nature does that happen. Nowhere. Okay, can you name one other species of animal where that is what happens? Nowhere doesn't happen. Who competes? Who are the bright plumed birds? They're all the males because they have to show off exactly and be like, pick me, pick me. And the woman's like, no, no, that's that's what's natural. Right. So, yeah, so I do think part of our work is building the web, being in relationship with each other and uh in friendship and support of sisterhood and and really showing up for each other because that's part of how we get make our way through all of this. Yeah, yeah. That's part of the that's part of the fortification, the inner fortification, the outer fortification. It's like, yeah, we're not we're not doing this alone. Like we're all we're all in it together. Yeah, no, I I don't think the hero quote unquote model works in this kind of thing. It has to be a different model. Yeah. Well, all right.

Gratitude For Listeners And Next Season

Linda 49:10

This was a very feisty and exciting conversation, dear listeners. I hope you guys enjoyed it. I hope you've enjoyed season five. It has been such a joy, I can at least speak for myself, to be here again with Laura and to have these conversations that are so important to hear how they resonate with you, our dear listeners, uh, what things you agree with, what you don't agree with, where you're struggling with these things in your life or interfacing with them. Um that's that's the juice. That's the juice. It is. And we love to hear from you. You're part of what keeps us going. So we don't feel like it's just the two of us talking into a void. We love it when we hear from you. We love it when you tell us that you're sharing the episodes with other people. It's just the best thing ever. So thank you for all your support. And we know that there are other things happening that we aren't even aware of, but it's just a beautiful thing to know that you're out there and spreading the word. So thank you. Thank you. Well, until next season. I was actually gonna say that, but I forgot. Dang damn it. Right. Until season six.