What Does it Mean to Prioritize Relationships as a Woman in 2026?

Welcome to episode 18, season 5 of the Woman Uncaged podcast! This week, we explore Laura and Linda's shared epiphanies that relationships are what matter most to them, and why that sparked fears of looking dependent, unfeminist, or stereotypical. 

Laura shares the surprising tenderness of getting into a new romantic relationship relatively quickly after divorce and the mixed feelings that came with it, especially after consuming the post-divorce women's memoir narrative that's been so popular recently. We talk about how any cultural script, even a liberating one, can become a cage when it turns into an either-or: either you choose yourself or you choose partnership. We make space for a both-and where autonomy, curiosity, and self-development can happen inside a healthy relationship. 

From there, we widen the lens to midlife transitions, empty nest grief, and the impulse to fill newly open space with obligations. We also connect this to purpose, business, and success, including why  “niching down” and singular life purpose myths can deaden growth-oriented women.

If you are navigating post-divorce dating, redefining identity in midlife, rebuilding after an empty nest, or simply trying to prioritize relationships without losing yourself, this conversation will meet you with honesty and warmth. Subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review, then tell us what you’re prioritizing in this season of your life.

Resources Mentioned:

Qoya LORE (Lifestyle of Reverence Everyday): https://www.qoyainspiredmovement.com/lore-membership

James Hillman 

Laura's Midlife Reinvention Episode of Woman Uncaged

Transcript

Migraine Week And Real Friendship

Linda 0:02

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Woman Uncaged. This is episode 18 of season five, coming up on the end of the season. And I am here, I'm Laura Gates Lupton, and I am here with my very beloved bestie, Ms. Linda Katz. It's making a cute little face over there. As you all know, I adore Linda. I was thinking about it this morning as I was getting ready for the day. I've had this brutal migraine all week. Um, and Linda has been so supportive. I really have appreciated it. We've had some great boxer exchanges, even with my adult brain. Um, and it's I just so appreciate how Linda, you are so supportive in all the seasons, whether I'm having a great time or a terrible time. Linda is always right there, 100% on my side, which I'm so grateful for. And I was thinking about how when we first met, you were like 37 or something. And I remember something like that. Yeah, because it was 2020, yeah, 2020. 2020. Uh-huh. And I was thinking about how I really liked you. I admired you. I was sort of in awe of you. You were presenting your point of view around your work, and and because we were in a mentorship together, and I just thought it was incredible. And then I found out how young you were, and I was kind of pissed off because it's like, damn it, I wasn't that mature when I was her age. You were just raising three kids, you know, the little the little things. Yeah. Not mature at all. Well, I have my own, but I mean, the way just the depth of your wisdom is what really stood out to me at what seemed to me a very young age. Um, and that has only grown over time. Now I'm not pissed off about it. I'm grateful for it. But um seriously though, I remember thinking like, she's so young, but she's so wise. Like, how is this? It just seemed to me like you have an old soul and it still does. And these are things that I really love about you. I love that you're goofy and funny and silly, and also one of the smartest people I know. And when I say smart, I don't just mean facts and figures. I mean like wise with a real depth of knowledge and knowing, which are two different things. And I just love that we get to do this together every week. Um, that's why I'm here, even though I don't quite feel up to par, is because I didn't want to miss it. I just love being here. So happy to hand it over to you, Linda. Oh, thank you so much, Laura. Clearly, your adult brain is very wonderful at heaping excessive amounts of praise. And I am here with my beloved and dear friend and co-conspirator, Ms. Laura Gates-Lufton. And I think that introduction, um, as much as it was about me, I think it shows what kind of human you are, Laura, in that you really see the people in your life. You see the light and the gifts and what they have to offer the world, you see the potential in the people around you in the most delicious and beautiful way, not like in a pressure way. But Laura is one of those people that when you're in her presence, you can't help but feel a little bit bigger, a little bit more like yourself. Because there's always, like exactly what you said, there's always room for the entirety of our human experience. There's never a sense of like, oh, I can't, I can't share this part, or I can't say this part, or this is too exciting, or this is too sad, or I'm too angry, you know. There's Laura is an amazing person at being able to also hold the breadth and the depth of life. And this is why Laura is an amazing coach, as you can probably imagine from hearing that, is that this is what she does also naturally with her friends and also with her clients, is seeing, you know, the beautiful gifts in women and where there is space for growth that maybe we don't even see ourselves, or maybe there's a place where we're not claiming those pieces of ourselves. She's like, maybe just a little. So as always, it is such a joy to be here today. And I so appreciate that Laura is here, even with her migraine journey this week, and as somebody who has headaches, uh, not super infrequently in this household as well. I know what that is like, and it just fucking sucks, man. So derailed my week for sure. I can't believe I'm on day four. It's getting better, it's getting better. May it be fully gone. So send send some good vibes when this uh when this goes live. May that headache be gone with the wind and out of Laura's hair. May it be so a long distant memory. So

Finding A North Star In Connection

Linda 4:55

so what are we talking about today, Linda? Today we are talking about something that Laura and I have, this is what we've been boxing about in addition to headaches this week, um, is relationships. And it was funny because I shared this like aha that I had with Laura uh that I'll share with you, dear listeners, as well. And then she was like, you know, it's funny, I had something similar that came up recently, and it prompted this whole line of inquiry and conversation. And basically it started because I was doing a KOIA class with uh the lore program, the lifestyle of reverence every day. And the topic for that class was finding your North Star. Kind of, and it was around like goal setting, which is not the direction that I went with it as per usually. I was just gonna say, I didn't know that piece and it does not fit at all. You know, you know how I am with goal setting. Yes, I do. One of the things I love about you. So, but the idea was the prompt at the beginning was if there was one thing that if you at the end of your life, if there was one thing that you hadn't devoted your heart fully to, or you hadn't given your heart fully to that you would regret. Um what instinctively came up for me was the relationships in my life that are, you know, with the the people and the creatures and the places and the plants that that really matter to me. And, you know, I have to say there was almost like I had mixed feelings about that being my North Star because one, it wasn't a goal that is like necessarily a cheat, like an achievable thing that you measure and you're moving towards. It wasn't like I'm gonna have a solo art show, you know, or something like that. Right. But that was the most honest thing that came up for me. And, you know, realizing that that has been the case for a large part of my life, that the things that really do matter to me are the people and um again the creatures. And I the the mixed feelings I think came about from a couple of different places. I think in part we can be told that, you know, like, oh, putting other people, like women, you know, always put other women, uh, other people first that we are self-sacrificial. And so some of that got stirred up where I was like, oh, is this part of the the good girl pattern again? That but it seemed like it was something that like the good girl pattern had the surface level of that, but this had the actual depth. It's like the real relationships are where we don't have to perform, we don't have to be a role, exactly what we shared in our introduction, the places where we can bring all of ourselves. But it really prompted this delicious conversation about what does it mean as women in 2026 to prioritize our relationships and what are the internal and external hurdles that we encounter? And I would love to pass it over to you, Laura, as to how this has been showing up in your life as of late.

Post Divorce Dating And Mixed Feelings

Linda 8:11

Well, it was so funny when you voxed me to tell me about this because I had had a similar thing a few weeks ago. I don't remember when, I think it was after we had recorded a podcast episode. Linda and I were hanging out as we often do for another hour or so on Zoom, just chatting. And I was saying to her that I felt I had mixed feelings about the fact that I ended up getting into a relationship so quickly after I started dating. You know, I there was a space between the time I separated from a long-term marriage until I started dating. But once I started dating, I think I started dating like I think my very first date was like October 28th. It was a and that was a dud. And it my first good date was November 2. I remember that for sure. And then I met the guy I'm with now on December 13th. And we've been together pretty much ever since. And so, and I had mixed feelings about that. I felt almost not feminist or something. And I, you know, I've been reading all the divorce memoirs, and I'm sure a lot of you have too, and they're great. And I love reading these stories about women really blossoming after they leave these long-term marriages and finding out who they are, and in most cases, they stay single at least for a significant period of time. And part of the exploration is dating and sex and you know, having an unattached exploration of all of that. And I thought that would be me. So it was very surprising when I met this guy, and he's pretty amazing. And, you know, we've been together all this time. And I was so Sandy Linda, I felt weird about that in a way. And she was super supportive and helpful when she was talking about it. What the things that she said to me were really, really helpful. It was a few days later, I think maybe a week or so later, I was laying in bed one morning and suddenly it just hit me. It was like, relationships have been the most important thing always to me, my whole life, even as a kid. I was always I had deep friendships as a kid. I've always had that. I've had periods of being single, but mostly I've had long-term relationships romantically. Um, and they've for the most part been good relationships that, you know, obviously some of them, all of them, like came to an end, but you know, but they were good relationships. And see, why would I think, given that, why would I think that I would have this period of time where I wouldn't be in a long-term relationship or I wouldn't want that? It doesn't actually make sense when you look at the trajectory of my life. But I had sort of bought into this narrative, somewhat of a feminist narrative of like, you know, um, it's the my time for myself. It was my time to go out and do things just for me. And I'm still doing that. I'm just doing that in the context of a relationship, so it's different. But anyway, I had that revelation. I was thinking, oh, I want to tell Linda about this, and then I didn't for a variety of reasons. I kept thinking I was going to, and then you know, you voxed me with this message, and I was like, oh, this is so amazing. Because I just had this revelation myself. And I think it's it's it's really similar. It's you know, I think it's that the concern being that it's a stereotype that a woman, for me in my case, separates from a long-term marriage, gets divorced, and immediately starts looking for number two, you know, or it's it's like women going to college to get their MRS, you know. It's like that's the more important thing. It isn't all the other stuff. And for me, I didn't want to look like I was participating in that stereotype because it doesn't feel like I am. I feel like I am very much on an exploration of who I am at this stage of life. It just happens to include a relationship with an amazing guy who's also on that exploration for himself, yeah, which is one of the things I love about our relationship. And it doesn't look like or have to look like any stereotype, just sounds like on the surface. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I feel like there's just any meta-narrative, I think, can become its own version of a cage when we try to either adhere to it or not. And I think this is what I told Laura. I was like, what a joy that you have a different story than so many of the other stories that are being told. Um, I think that's a good thing. That is what you said. That was really helpful to hear, as always. You know, we I'll I enjoy those. I've read several of those um divorce memoirs, and they've been fantastic. And I think that they present one very specific way of growth andor blossoming after divorce or at this new phase of life. And I think that if we see that as the only option, it can lead us to believe that all female growth and blossoming only happens outside the context of a relationship. That it's like it's an it becomes an either-or. Yes. And when it becomes an either-or, that's when we always know we're in some kind of cage again. Where it's like, oh, I can either choose myself and my own development and my own blossoming at this time in my life, or I can have a romantic long-term partner. And I think that that is the the messiness of navigating the fact that it's that's not your experience, and that hasn't been my experience either.

When Narratives Become New Cages

Linda 13:29

It's that there's um even when we try to it kind of reminds me of like the rebel archetype, because it's like we we see the the stereotype of the woman who prioritizes relationships or you know, the man in her life, or doesn't want to be single, or whatever it is, and then we just rebel against that stereotype, but in so doing, we just fall into another stereotype, we fall into another cage because as you said, this was always true for you, and that's what I realized through our conversation was I was like, well, shit, this has always been true for me as well. I even wrote about it in Homecoming when you know I remember in college my boyfriend at the time being like, Oh, you're wasting time by going and like sitting outside at Starbucks with your friends and conversing. And I was I remember feeling like, well, how is that a waste of time? Like that's that's life, like that's where the juiciness of life is. That's part of the reason I think we both love doing this podcast, and we get to just sit here and converse, and then we share with other people and they share their thoughts with us, and it's like which is the greatest joy ever. It really, it really is. And it's like, and I think that was the thing too with the KOIA class was this sense of oh my gosh, is this can this even be a goal? Like it feels like this anti-goal, like it became less and it prompted for me uh this inquiry into um again the division between what are we doing versus who who are we being, and how we still give this prevalence and importance to what we're doing, yeah, and how I still fall prey to that, even though I don't in my heart of hearts believe it. But that cultural narrative is really strong. And I was rereading an interview with um oh, what's his name? James Hillman, I think it was. And in it, the they were speaking about that, how because we have this focus on what we're doing, we tend to think of a calling as a vocation, that those two things are the two are the same. That it's like, oh, a calling is a vocation, which is what do you do, which is what do you do for work? It's like and they all become stringed together. And what he was saying was like, oh, you know, in ancient Greece, a calling might be friendship, like being a really wonderful friend. Um, then it went into a little bit of a misogynistic kind of uh patriarchal undertone because they were like, you know, like being a mother, like now it's not enough to be a mother. But I was like, why didn't you say that about fatherhood then? But as an aside, we take the good and then forget the rest. But there was that piece around, yeah, like what why is it that our quote unquote calling always has to be tied to our work rather than who we just are naturally? Like, what if our calling is to be in friendship or relationship or along with all the other things that we want to birth into the world? But yeah. Yeah, I there's a lot that I just said there. I know, and I love I there's so much I wrote some things down that I want to think more about because I love what you said there. Um, and I don't trust my brain right now to hold it. Um yeah, for me, as I was thinking about it, I was realizing even my work has always been about relationships because you know, when you're a therapist, you can learn all the techniques in the world. But if you can't have if you can't have a depth of a relationship with another person, you're not gonna be effective. The the therapeutic relationship is only as effective as the relationship is. And it doesn't matter, it really doesn't matter. Like if you could know 25 billion techniques for anxiety, for example, but if you can't relate to the person in front of you, they're not gonna absorb it, it's not gonna be helpful.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Right.

Linda 17:34

Um, and that's one of the things I learned after supervising a lot of students too, because it's it's you have like a lot of people want to quickly jump into giving advice and that kind of thing. It's like, no, no, no, your job right now is to build the relationship, your job is to make the connections, your job is to be there and really listen to this person and let them know that you're there listening and that you get them and you like them and you see them. That's that has to come first, always. And when you've got that foundation, then yeah, incredible change can happen. But without it, it doesn't. And if it does, it's brief and it's not lasting.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Yeah.

Linda 18:03

And same is true for coaching, in my opinion. And I think that's something a lot of coaches miss because it's not in the training. So relationship to me is really the basis of everything I do in life. And I don't know why I was thinking that somehow that was gonna change after leaving a marriage.

unknown 18:23

You know.

Relationships As Calling Not Just Work

Linda 18:26

But it's so interesting too because like what he said about being a mother, like that being enough, that's a very what do I want to say? It is patriarchal, but it's also a shallow way of looking at relationships. It's like, yeah, you're a mother, that's your identity, and therefore that's just that's it, that's all you need. But what happens when those kids leave home? Right. Right. I think that's what sinks a lot of women, what gets a lot of women into trouble is the overly identifying with that in some sense, because that it's so socially acceptable to be like, you know, I'm a mom first, my kids come first. I do everything for my kids, and then they merrily waltz out the door, and you're like, uh-oh.

unknown 19:07

You know.

Linda 19:08

Well, yeah, if you've done it, if you've done the job well, like that's that's the natural include, like, that's the natural way of things. Yeah. Yeah. My kids are so independent. Like I hardly hear from them. And I mean, when I do, it's wonderful, but they're busy in their lives and I love what they're doing. And you know, thank God, it's not my whole identity.

unknown 19:28

Yeah.

Linda 19:29

And I I've thought for a long time, like we do conflate motherhood with jobs. We tend to think that instead of it being a relationship, that it is a calling or a job. And really, it is it's about a relationship, and it's also about a season, yeah. A long season, yeah, in some ways, but it's a season.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Yeah.

Linda 19:50

And I feel like it's that it's that energy. Like I like, I often think of it as less of a job and more of like the mothering energy, which I think is kind of what happens in coaching or even in therapy, is that there is this, you know, in the attuning to what the client is bringing, there is this mothering, like natural kind of cosmic mothering energy that comes through in holding the space for that person, in, you know, showering them with your what is that, like positive, unconditional regard. I think it was Carl Rogers' phrase. You know, like there is um, there is some of there is some of that. And I think that yeah, it's just it's it's just very interesting that I think that it becomes hijacked by this. I think even because of the fact that it becomes hijacked is probably why we see motherhood as a job, like that as opposed to a relationship. It becomes like a list of tasks that you do versus just an aspect, not the entirety, but an aspect of who you are. Yeah, and and it's for a season, unless I mean unless you get you keep bringing in new kids into your life until you die, which some people do, but not that many. It it's a season. So it's it's it doesn't make for a very solid identity over time.

unknown 21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

Yeah.

Linda 21:16

You know? Um, there was something else I thought of, but of course it went right out of my head. Maybe it'll come back. I don't know. But I'm I'm curious, Linda, for you. Like if you have a client who like when I'm sure you've had this because you work with a lot of women at midlife who are sort of questioning their identity because their nest is emptying. Um, and maybe their life they feel like their life really has been about a particular relationship. How do you work with that? I think it's really about creating the space for the what is emergent in them to come through, to become, you know, to create this soft and fertile place for the Cultivation of whatever their dreams are that are emerging in that phase of their life. You know, it was interesting. I went and got my hair cut yesterday, and I was speaking with my stylist, and she's in her early 50s. And she is an artist from, you know, like she went to art school and had that focus, went into styling hair because it felt like adjacent and creative at least. But she's had, you know, she was saying that she's been raising children from when she was, you know, 20 years old. And so there is this, she's at this season of her life where her her youngest now is, you know, 17. And there is this questioning around, well, what do I want to do with my life now? And I think I told her I was like, I have this wise friend Laura who always says that this is like a developmental phase for women. It is. And I think that there's that. It's it is about listening to what is what is emergent in the moment and trusting it. And it may not be what we think it's going to be. And I think that's another example of like when you met your partner. Like, there is sometimes what is emergent in the moment is not what we imagined that it was going to be.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Yeah.

Linda 23:16

Like we might imagine that it's like, oh, the we've got this empty nest and we're gonna go out and do all these things. And it might be like, oh, there's a lot of grief to tend to, actually. Like there's a lot of mourning, there's gonna be some downtime, there's gonna be a lot of wrestling with the unknown, like making space for all of that. Uh, even if it's not something that you know, the our culture invites or talks about. Right.

unknown 23:40

Right.

Linda 23:41

Did you tell her not to go out and get a bunch of pets? I did not. You know, I wouldn't do that. Be like, have you thought about getting more dogs? You should go to the local shelter. Let me take you to the love pit. Exactly. I was wearing this shirt that I'm currently wearing, which is a love pit shirt yesterday. Also that is funny. By the way, your hair looks great. Um, but the reason I said that to Linda, it's it's kind of a joke between the two of us because what what we've both seen women do sometimes when they hit the empty nest phase is immediately find something to take care of, whether it's uh, you know, take on a child to take care of during the day or get a bunch of pets or whatever, and so often regret it once they get through that initial phase of mourning, but also like you know, saying goodbye to what has been, but also greeting what's there and and settling into it a little bit. And then once people do settle into it, often they're like, oh shoot, why did I fill my life with more obligations? I could be free right now. I could do anything I wanted, but I now have this. Yeah, yeah. It happens a lot.

unknown 24:49

Yeah.

Linda 24:50

So my number one piece of advice to anybody facing the empty nest is don't make any decisions for at least six months.

unknown 24:56

Yeah.

Linda 24:57

Spend some time, you know, thinking about what you want, maybe experimenting a little bit, but don't make any permanent decisions. Yeah. It's also such a malleable time, you know, it's like that transitionary time between the identity that you may have had and the one that is still being formed. There's like that in-between phase, and oftentimes that can be really uncomfortable. And so we just jump back into the old identity and we try to make it fit in some way, shape, or form rather than acknowledging the opportunity that is at hand of, but what do I want to do with my life now? Who am I actually in this phase of my life? Yes, we had a great conversation about exactly that in an episode. I don't remember, it must have been season two, maybe. It was it's called Laura's Midlife Reinvention. Um, when we talked about that. Because one of the things that happened for me after I left this marriage, a long-term marriage, was I I sort of woke up to suddenly like, oh my God, I could do anything right now. The only restriction I have is finances, you know, like the only thing that's holding me back is how much money I have. But I could go anywhere, do anything, live anywhere, and it scared the hell out of me. It's like all that sudden freedom after years of being a mom and a wife. It was terrifying. And it was, I was glad I know what I know because it kept me from jumping back into another cage. It was so tempting to do something that would suddenly tie me down again because the freedom was scary. Yeah. But you gave yourself a good amount of time, and I think that's the difference too, right?

Empty Nest Grief And The Six Month Rule

Linda 26:36

And yeah, and it's a fine line, and no one, this is the hard part, right? No one from the outside can know where that line is within ourselves of when is it that we are jumping into another cage versus when is it that we're following what is emergent and true for us in the moment. Sometimes we don't even know. Like sometimes, like you said, it's only after the fact that we're like, oh shit. Or like, oh, I can I can see how this is like the growth through this new relationship. Like, I mean, when when Sophie passed, Eric and I had originally said that we were gonna wait, you know, uh at least a year. Linda had a whole plan. Yeah, we had a whole plan. It was travel, it was a year, there was gonna be no dogs, there was gonna be time for the two of us in freedom. And then it went four months, and then we had not one, but two puppies, one of whom stuck around and is currently asleep on the floor behind me. Um, foster fail, such and such the talk about the stereotype. Um, but you know, even through that, like I can see how this in this the context of this relationship with Ursa, which is so different than my relationship with Sophie, and especially because you know, Sophie lived to be 14 and a half. We had a long time together. That was a long stretch of my life. Like we both grew a lot together. Well, you were in a different developmental phase when you got her, so that's also part of it. Yes. And now this, but I can already feel again the growth and the development and the blossoming that is happening because of my relationship with her. Who I am and who she needs me to be, and the aspects of myself that I need to call forth that maybe have gone a little under the radar or been buried. She needs me to be able to cultivate those. And I need myself to be able to cultivate those. But in the context of this relationship, I can I can already see how we are gonna grow together as well. And we already have, you know, she's two and a half, and it's um, and I think it's it's that's that same dynamic. It's like one of the ways that I grow and my soul grows and wants to experience life on this beautiful planet is in relationship with a beloved furry creature. Yeah, like it just is like that's part, like it always has been. Like all I ever wanted was a dog, and that's I have to be okay with that too, you know. Like that there is that's that's part of it for me. Yeah, yeah. And if you if you want to know, if you want to know more about that story, you have to pick up Linda's book, Homecoming. She writes beautifully about her desire as a child for a dog. I can I'm hearing the words in my head right now from your book. My favorite book was Where the Red Fern Grows Growing Up. I used to walk fake dogs. I found my mom found uh like my diary from probably like third grade or so. And it was literally just every other line was like, Man, I really wish I had a dog. I really want a dog. Oh, happy new year, but is it really that happy? It's just another year without a dog. I love that so much. And I think that's part of what this conversation that we're having is that again, it comes back to this idea that oftentimes our growth and blossoming and development and evolution comes in the con in the context of the various relationships in which we're embedded in our lives. Yeah. I mean, I think almost always actually. I think that that's actually part of why the relationship is so important in therapy or coaching, is because it's a growth-oriented relationship. And the relationship itself is fodder for what's happening. It's like when you can look at, you know, in therapy, we call it transference and counter-transference. Transference, the feelings that the client has about the therapist and counter-transfers, transference is the opposite. And there's a lot of growth that can happen just from looking at that. It's not even like, what did you do this week? It's more about what's transpiring between the two of us in the context of this relationship. And there's a lot of growth that can happen looking at that. And that so it's so interesting to me that I got caught up in my head that somehow I was going to have this amazing growth phase not being in a relationship when real when I believe this so strongly, which is sort of funny. But I think it's just true with any relationship that that is where a lot of growth is. And it's kind of akin to when we're trying to figure something out in our lives, like when we're having some particular issue or some desire and we sit and think about it for a really long time. You can think about things for a very long time, but you're not actually going to figure them out until you get in the game. And I think that's the same thing with relationships. We can we can think that we're gonna make all these changes and make all these whatever, you know, growth spurts, whatever. But usually the way they happen are because we're doing it either with other people or for other people. I mean, being a mom made me look at things in my life that I never would have looked at otherwise. But I didn't want to put them on my kids. Yeah, you know, I wanted my kids to have a better experience of life than I had, especially as a young person. And so I wanted to address all of those things, even though some of them are really painful and awful to look at.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Yeah.

Linda 32:10

You know, but the I and I wouldn't have had the motivation otherwise if it wasn't if I wasn't concerned about hurting somebody else. You know, and being in a relationship now for me, it's so interesting to be with somebody who's so different from the person I was married to and who is so much on his own growth journey, which has been phenomenal to watch, and so interested in like when things come up between us, being like, Okay, yeah, I really want to address this. I I want to hear what's happening. I wanna like I he said last night, he's like, I'm so grateful we can have hard conversations. That's totally new to me. I didn't know that was possible. Yeah, and so what a joy to get to experience that to realize there's so much here that I didn't know was here. I thought I understood what long-term relationships were like. I've been in several of them. This is a whole new ball game. That's so beautiful, and it it feels like that just that wise, that wise and wild woman energy of being able to stay in the context of the relationship, even when conflict arises, and that being there and being two adults present in that moment, it actually deepens the relationship rather than severs it. It's like it's this, it's such a beautiful alchemy that can occur. And I I just I also want to touch upon that piece that you said. It's like a relationship oftentimes are where the the rubber meets the road, you know, like we can think all these wonderful things and you know who we are and how we act and all this stuff. And then like in the context of the relationships in our lives is where all the other shit shows up. And that that is the that is the difficulty, but that is also the beauty of it, is that we get to grow alongside and with and for the other people and creatures in our lives. Yeah, it's it's so true. And if you have people who will mirror back to you, I mean that's one of the things I love about our relationship, yours and mine, is because we do that for each other. And if you have people who will do that, I mean it's not always what you want to see. It's not always how you're seeing things yourself, but that's part of the joy, though, is having somebody else say, Well, this is what I'm seeing right now, or this is what how I remember when you had that dream two years ago that that's this is Linda. She says to me all the time, remember that remember that dream you had two years ago? It seems really relevant to this right now. And I'm like, What dreams? Like she remembers and I don't, which is shocking. But I can't remember where I put my purse ever, but I can remember a dream that Laura had two years ago and shared with me. The brain works in mysterious ways, my friends. True, and it's so helpful because then I'm like, Oh, you're right. Yeah. You know, somebody else who can look and see the trajectory of your growth and your what's shifting and what's changing is super helpful. That's one of the reasons it's helpful to have a therapist or a coach.

unknown 35:15

Yeah.

Linda 35:16

Yeah. I think that in reality, we are just we're meant to do these lives together. You know, like part of that, my intention was to be embedded in a like a nourishing web of relationships. And then I was like, thought of Laura and I thought of our one of our first episodes on the web. And that that so it's why why it came as a surprise or an epiphany to either of us this past week that we were like, oh, relationships really matter to me. Well, what's kind of funny is that for both of us it came as sort of a disappointment

Seasonal Purpose And Evolving Work

Linda 35:49

at first. It was still like, damn it. It's kind of like when you take those career tests, you know, like what's your best career? Like, I took one and I so desperately wanted them to tell me it was something not social work related or not, you know, therapy related. And of course it all came out like you'd be a great social worker, you'd be a great therapist. You'd be like, damn it. I already knew that. Can I just change some of the answers around a little bit? See if I can come up with something else. Can I be a financial analyst? Can I be? Well, yeah, because there's I feel like again, there is so much societal pressure around that, around again, having your your calling be your work that is your vocation, like that, and that there is this, as we spoke about, I think in one of our other recent podcasts, about the myth of singular focus. Yes. You know, like that that is one of the things that we're sold as being the answer to so many things, like, oh, you're distracted, oh, you're multitasking. One never works for women, or very hardly ever does. Uh, because usually we are the ones multitasking and holding in all of the different threads in our lives. Yeah. But I also am like, to me, it sounds horribly boring in reality to be so singularly focused. I mean, I think it's, you know, I think of our beloved marketing mentor, Tod Hargrave, which is how Lori and I met. And he would talk about, you know, doing the introductory workshops. And like, you just perfect it, you know, over 20 years. Yeah. Over 20 years, you just keep tinkering and getting it a little bit better and a little better. And most of the women that I would say that were part of that program after a while would get so bored with doing it that way and be like, I must change what I'm doing entirely. I must do something completely different. And I'm like, where is that? Like, where is that in the literature? Where is that in what the stories that were whole told? Where is that version of, like we talked about last week, success?

unknown 37:59

Yeah.

Linda 37:59

That is just more expansive, that gives more room for evolution, for growth, for experimentation, for going off down a little pathway and seeing what kind of little acorns you can find to bring back with you and go down this other little path over here. I might be thinking of a squirrel in my mind as I say that. For the first time ever. Um Yeah, there's I love that you use the word evolution because that's what I was thinking too, is that a lot of the women who come to me when they're talking about their businesses, for example, they struggle with identifying an ideal client or a particular niche or those kinds of things because they're like, but I really like change. I you know, I'm constantly evolving. So it's hard for me to settle on one thing. And I can totally relate to that. Yep. It's so many of us, if we're growth-oriented people, our businesses, our work, our callings are also going to be growth-oriented. And that's part of why I don't love the idea of a single life purpose. And I've talked about this with a lot of my clients. I think purpose is seasonal, and you can have a purpose in certain seasons of life and you can let it go when it's done and pick up another one or two. It doesn't even necessarily have to be a single purpose. I think this is just this patriarchal myth that we're sold about keeping our lives narrow and one-dimensional and in a certain lane so that we can, you know, be quiet and diminutive and uh obedient, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. I just I love that. I love that term, like just growth-oriented. Like if we are growth-oriented people, then naturally almost all the expressions of what we do will also be growth-oriented.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Yes.

Linda 39:41

And I remember my I talk about Leanne a lot with Leanne Raymond, my longtime coach. And when I was going through all these like different iterations with my coaching business, I remember one piece of advice she gave me was like, don't make it too narrow. Because she could see what I couldn't see back, you know, seven, eight years ago, where I was listening so much to all of those, like niche down, niche down, like get really clear. And she's had a thriving coaching practice for over 20 years without having any necessary, she works with women. That's literally all I know. It's like soulful women who want to live like you know, more soulful life. Like it's a very broad genre that gets to grow with her and alongside her and alongside her clients. And I think that yeah, we just don't have a lot of examples of that. And it can be so easy again to fall into that trap of listening to all of that propaganda, I guess, around this is how you have to do things, this is what it takes to succeed. And then it actually I think brings about the failure, quote unquote, because that's just not the way that I, at least for me, that's not the way that I work. That's not sustainable for me. Yeah, no, not for me. Well, not for me either. And I don't think for most women, I've had women come to me who've had thriving practices, very specific niches, and they're like, I just can't if I have to talk to one more client about this. Like, and it's hard because the money's coming in, like, you know, they've longed to get to this place, and now they're at this place. And what they think it is too when they come in is a fear of success. They're like, I think maybe I'm just afraid of success because suddenly I don't want to do this work anymore. I think that's what it is. I think I'm hitting this upper limit problem. And often that's not it at all. It's that feeling of being squelched and being stuffed into a tiny little box, you know? And like, and yeah, I have so much knowledge in this area, but I also am interested in this and this and this and this. And I want to be having a different conversation. This has happened to me too. Every seven years, I'm like, I can't talk about the same thing over and over again anymore. I have to do something different. And I'm at that point right now. Um, because I just can't, you know, it's like I've grown and changed, my thinking is grown and changed, and I want to be having a different conversation because that's what's more important to me than anything. And I just love the word that you're using over and over again is conversation, because what a relational term. Right. It's not like I want to change the work that I'm doing, I want to change the conversation that I'm having. I want to change the conversations that I'm having with my clients or even in my own writing, like because there is like a level of conversation in that. And yeah, it's uh it's so fascinating what you shared. You know, the again, that kind of cultural story that it's like, oh, it's a fear of success. And it's like, oh, or it could just be that you're really bored. You're just like, you know, like I feel extremely learned. You've explored everything you needed to explore about this particular topic. And now you're it's done, you're done with it, and it's done with you.

unknown 42:53

Yep.

Linda 42:54

You know, and I'm from my experience, when I've tried to hang in there, I've this is what's been happening in over recent months. I've tried to hang in there a little bit with what I've been doing. The work just sort of dries up. I haven't had as many inquiries, I haven't had as many people coming to me. Um, I don't really feel like writing the newsletter. Yeah. So I'm doing it in fits and spurts. It's like even if I'm like thinking, no, this has been good, it's important, this is what people know me for. And you know, I get caught up in this too, even though I know what I know. Um, it just the universe is like, nope. Let me help you with this. Let me make this easier to walk away from. Yep. Yeah. Well, I think it's because our our brain oftentimes, you know, we like there's parts of us that like certainty, that like to know what's going on, like that wants to keep things in the status quo, that want to be like, oh, well, this is working, let's not change it. You know, the parts that are working. Even though it's like to me, it's what I call this the wild soul is like, even though it's working. I feel deadened by it. Yes. And I don't want a life where I feel deadened. That's not a life. That's not a life, right? You're like, I it's the exact opposite, isn't it? Um and just yeah, naming that, like naming that that can be an option. But it's like sometimes the things that we work really hard towards, we worked for them for a season, and then that season comes to an end. And that's okay too. Yeah, absolutely. And I I think one of the pieces that we get caught up to is around control.

Control Boundaries And Relationship Mess

Linda 44:36

Like when you've had a successful practice in a certain area, there's you have a sense of mastery and a sense of control because you know basically clients aren't going to come in with anything too shocking. You've seen it all, you've heard it all, all that kind of thing. Um, and so starting something new, it's there's some risk involved, it feels a little more out of our control. But I think that's really parallel to what we're talking about with relationships in general, that this exploration, this growth through relationships, much less of it is in our control than if you're just in a really lovely apartment that you've decorated the way you like it, you've set it up the way you want it, that you have a routine that's just yours. All these things are in your control, right? Then you step out of that world for a while and relate to other people, and then you come back and you have this place that you just, you know, it's like your own little kingdom. It's very different when you're in a relationship or multiple relationships with friends and family and to maybe a partner where you just have far less control.

unknown 45:35

Yeah.

Linda 45:36

There's like a whole other being that you're interfacing with and meeting, you know, who has a whole vibrant inner world that we are only get little snippets of. It's like, here is the mystery of the goddess's creation, like that appears before you in this human format or this animal format that you then that we are also that mystery, and then we get to come together, like, yeah, there's no control in that because we have no idea what's going on in another person. Like they're having their own whole experience and their own whole inner world and their own, you know, ex experience and thoughts and feelings. And yeah, it's it's like a whole different way of moving through the world, for sure. And there are times times when they see us in a way that doesn't necessarily fit, or you'll be like, What you saw that? What are you talking about? You know, where they project things on us and we get to deal with that, and we project things on them, and we get to deal with that. And yeah, it's messy, it's very messy, it's very messy, and I think that's part of too that we're sort of sold this idea of things being not so messy. That it's all like rainbows and sunshine, and you know, and that's you can't have a real relationship and have it be all rainbows and sunshine. No. I think that I think that some of the hyper focus on the conversations around boundaries that have been happening over the last few years in the self-help world are definitely part of wanting to make relationships less messy. And I'm not saying boundaries aren't needed and valuable, I just think that we've become like they're everywhere now. And I think in part it is because we want to exert a certain level of control in the relationships in our lives. Yeah, there's rigidity that gets introduced. But yeah, absolutely. I see that too. Um, and I'm I'm definitely pro-boundary. It's one of the things I do is I help my clients set boundaries. But but so it's not that at all. I'm not like, oh, free, free love, everybody. Just whatever. Yeah, that's no, no, no. But there's when it comes to that kind of rigidity of that, no, this is what I always do. This is what I never do, this is what you can never do. This is, you know, it must always be this specific way. Like you would say, that's a cage. Yep. All those rules that we set for ourselves. I'm like, you know, the more we trust ourselves and the people in our lives, the less rules we need. Yes. Yes. And I I, for one, am trying very hard to let go of rules. I don't have to try that hard for those two. There's a weird little corner of my brain that wants to set rules. I think only so I can break them, but it's really annoying. So I'm just trying to stop setting them. Hey, but maybe there's like a little kink in there that wants to break your rules. If you're like, all right, friend, like come along for the ride. We we should do a whole podcast episode about that.

Your Relationship Priorities And Values

Linda 48:42

Well, on that note, you're listeners. We'd love to hear from you and you. What does it mean for you to prioritize your relationships? And or maybe that isn't your number one priority, you know, for different people have different values and things in different seasons of life. But I think as women, there are new things that have come up um in different seasons of life around prioritizing relationships. And I think on the kind of personal growth, spiritual growth path too, there's different aspects that come that come up, different, different cages that magically appear. Yes. Yeah, I I would love to hear what people's experiences are. And I I should also say too, I have several women in my life who would love to be in a full-time romantic relationship, and that just does not happen. So I don't want to make it sound like, oh, I just chose to be in one. It just magically appeared. Well, it did sort of magically appear, but um, I feel lucky that that I have had the choice. Yeah, yeah. So I want to have that little disclaimer there too. But you know, so some some women are living in a beautiful apartment and having a lot of control, and they really would rather not. Yeah. Yeah. I know, I know many people like that as well. I do too. And I always hope that some somehow some decent person will show up in their lives. Yes. But yeah, we'd love to hear about your experience, whether it's that or anything else, that where you're like, oh, actually, no, at this stage of life, this is what I'm prioritizing. I'm finally able to prioritize my career, for example. Sometimes that's the joy of midlife, is having fewer other obligations. Yeah, or my creative practice, you know, like, yeah. That's a joy to see that happen. I know. There's so many ways to blossom. Maybe that's the that maybe that's the piece is that there's so many ways to blossom. We blossom in different ways at different parts in our lives. And sometimes we might be having like a yellow zinia over here, and then there's like a red rose, and they're sprouting at the same time, and that's okay too. Absolutely.

Final Takeaways And Goodbye

Linda 50:46

The more blossoming, the better. All right. Until next time.