What Would a Woman-Centered Definition of Success Look Like?

Welcome to the Woman Uncaged Podcast, Season 5, Episode 17!

Today, we’re pulling apart the mainstream definition of success and asking: What does that definition look like when you’re living a full life with caregiving, emotional labor, relationships, and changing seasons all happening at once?

We talk about why so many “success principles” don’t translate to women’s lives, especially when the model assumes a support system most of us don’t have. Instead of measuring everything by grades, money, productivity, or status symbols, we explore success as impact, flexibility, and enough financial stability to feel grounded. We also dig into how self-determined values become better markers than external benchmarks, and why it matters to name what you truly want in this phase of life.

If you’ve been rethinking work, money, homeownership, or what “making it” even means, you’ll feel right at home here. Subscribe to Woman Uncaged, share this with a friend who needs permission to redefine success, and leave a review to help more women find the conversation.

Resources mentioned:

 Lana Price's blog: https://www.pragmagical.com/

Link to the article mentioned: https://www.pragmagical.com/post/future-proofing-our-careers-a-resilience-strategy

The book The Success Principles by Jack Canfield. 

The book Plastic Inc. by Beth Gardiner

Transcript

Celebration, Gratitude, And Summer Plugs

Linda 0:02

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to episode 17, season five of the Woman Uncaged Podcast. My name is Linda Katz. Woohoo! We just celebrated our 3000th download of the Woman Uncaged Podcast. So thank you, dear listeners, for being here, for tuning in, for sharing your thoughts. It is such uh, it is such a joy. And it is such a joy to be here with my beloved and dearly wonderful friend and co-conspirator, Miss Laura Gates-Lupton. And I have to say that there is no one else that I would rather be doing this with than Laura. And if it wasn't for Laura, I can 100% guarantee that this podcast would not be happening because coming here with you, usually it's on Fridays. And already, like just before we jumped on, I was like, I am so tired. And within 20 seconds, I feel like this burst of energy just from getting to spend time with Laura and getting to talk about all of the things in life. And it's just been such a joy to be on this podcasting journey with you, to be able to hear your wisdom, your thoughts, to be able to share some of the things that we speak about privately in a more public way, to hope that it resonates with other women, to hope that it is helpful or provides food for thought. And you're just such a wonderful human. And I'm gonna keep it short today. I just want to say that I love Laura. And you should check out. I will do a small plug actually before I pass it on over. Laura is offering an amazing program this summer called Camp Vibrant that you need to get in there and see if this is a good fit for you. Because if you're not on her Substack, the emails that she's been sending out about herself at camp at like age 12, it's just been giving me life. I just, I was the last one that I read, I was like fist pumping the air because it had this visceral, so well written, of course, and it had this visceral feeling attached to it of the sheer joy that you know, so much of your message and the way that you embody and walk through the world as this powerful but also really vibrant and joyful and whole, deep, wise woman. So it's just wonderful to be here with you today. That was a very all over the place intro. I loved it. I loved all of it. Thank you so much. And you all know why I adore Linda. She just showed you right then and there. Oh, it's it's always such a joy to be here. I think about it all the time. It's the best way to end the week, no matter what the week has been. This week has been a doozy for me in some ways. And it's just, this is so life-giving. This experience of being here with Linda. She's so smart, so funny, so wise, and also walks through life in a really joyful way. And I love being a part of that with her and soulful way. It's not all, you know, um, good vibes only. It's with Linda, it's the whole package. She is the whole package, and she lives all of life. And that's one of the things I adore about her is that I feel like the thing for me this year, the theme has really been balancing polarities. And I have the best role model sitting across the screen from me right here. It's like, how do you hold it all? How do you really embrace the joy at the same time as you're feeling the sorrow? And I feel like Linda does that so beautifully, and she's taught me so much about that. So I'm just so thrilled to be here with you, Linda. And you complimenting my writing means a lot to me because your writing is amazing. And if you haven't gotten her on her Substack, Wild Woman in the Burbs, you should. If you haven't gotten her book, my God, what are you waiting for? It's so wonderful, homecoming. I just love that book. I think about it all the time. There's so many gems in there. You will not want to read it fast. And if you do, you'll want to read it again. It's so, so good.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Thank you so much, Laura. Oh, yay. I feel like we could just close there, but we won't.

Linda 4:19

We're going to be diving into a juicy little topic today. Laura, what are we going to be talking about? Well, before I say that, I want to say one other thing, which is that those that's okay. No, no, no. Those that 3,000 downloads for another podcast might not seem like much, but for ours, we don't market at all. So for you all, passing it, sharing it with your friends, like you all are our marketing team. And we couldn't be more grateful. We would not have gotten here without you. So that's part of why we're celebrating the 3,000, is it's come without any marketing.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

Yeah.

Linda 4:52

So that makes me get all choked up about it because it just means a lot. It means the sisterhood is sharing it for us. And you know that what an amazing thing. Just that's what we want.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

That's the that's the juicy, that's the good stuff right there.

Linda 5:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

100%.

Why Old Success Rules Fail Women

Linda 5:07

And I feel like that's a really good lead-in to today's topic, which is about success for women. Like, what does success look like like for women? Many of the books that are written about success are written by men. And they they certainly have their validity and they certainly can be useful. But so many times when I'm reading them, I'm thinking, yeah, this only works for somebody who has a wife at home doing all the homework, you know. Like so many of the books just wouldn't work if you're also caring for kids or elderly parents or doing all the emotional labor or you know, making sure that the house gets cleaned and you know, the refrigerator is full, and the millions of things that women do that we don't even notice a lot of the time, all the things that we manage, but that's always on our minds at the same time as we're working, unless you're a very rare woman, that seems to be true. And so wanting to talk a bit today about so how what does success look like for us? And I I remember years ago when I read The Success Principles by Jack Camfield, which is a book I really love. I think it's great. I kept wondering, well, what would the success principles for women be? And something we were talking about the other day, Linda, I don't remember if a boxer spurred this in me to bring up this topic. And then we were like, oh, this would be a great topic for the podcast. So that's why we're talking about today. I just don't remember what it was. That makes two of us. So I'm curious for you, Linda. Like, do you have a personal definition of success for you, or do you have a way of thinking about success? I feel like I don't have a personal definition. I have kind of more of a feeling. I actually have kind of a visceral negative reaction to the word success, I think for all of the reasons that you shared, that it tends to, for some reason, I imagine, you know, a businesswoman in the 1980s with like shoulder pads.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Like that to me, that's like the first image that comes to mind. And I was like, no, I don't want that.

Linda 7:11

And so even that word, I think I can have a little bit of um trouble with because it tends to come with this very specific definition of what success is meant to be. And I think for me, what I'm after is more of a feeling in my life where there's a sense of aliveness, there's a sense of vibrancy, there's there's space for rest, uh, something that we talk about a lot, that sense of having uh being able to work and create and rest and do things on our own timing and in our own rhythms. And also just making space, I think this was actually what spurred the conversation was making space for all of the different parts of our life. That it's like our version of success it if it comes at the cost of so much else, like, and now we're talking about probably financial success or career success specifically. If it comes at the cost of so many other things, is that truly success? Rather than having something that is flexible enough, like we I think we were talking about, you know, business models and building a life and building a financial life that is flexible and stable enough that we are able to move with the currents that life is providing us, which will be different season to season. And I think that for many women, and at least for myself, I know that I need something that's going to be flexible enough that I can go celebrate the the joys in friends' lives and family's lives, or the the more difficult aspects, you know, like being and helping my parents with certain things since they're, you know, getting older. Like there needs to be enough space and flexibility to be able to hold all of that, but not in a way that feels like like Sisyphus or you know, carrying the rock, which sometimes like, oh gosh, you know, you can feel it on your back. Not that it's like to be able to move and uh dance perhaps between these different aspects of our lives, that to me feels like success while having from a financial standpoint, again, enough stability that uh that practice doesn't feel like it's gonna be completely like you know, knock me off my feet. Right, if that makes sense. Yeah, you know you don't want to be dancing with life while you're living under a bridge.

unknown 10:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Exactly. No, I don't want that. Not that kind of defense.

Linda 10:09

Yeah. But I I say that in jest, of course, but I do think sometimes we think of success that way. It's either you're successful or you're not, and you're really not. Like it's you know, I see that a lot. There's a like a big polarity in terms of definition. For me, I tend to think of success as a fluid thing and it's very situational. So, for example, with me when I was raising my kids, the two things I most wanted with the kids was I wanted them to be critical thinkers and I wanted them to be good humans, like kind, caring, able to relate to other people. And if we could do those two things, and I felt like everything else would be pretty much okay, you know? And so, and and I feel like we were successful. They really they are critical thinkers and they are good humans. And so whatever they do with that is up to them. But you know, it really wasn't about grades, it wasn't about like those markers of achievement that we usually think of. And yeah, they did amazing things, and I'm proud of those things too, but I'm really proud of these two things more than anything. So, you know, that's kind of how I defined it in my own head. And for a lot of the women that I work with, I think success tends to be more about impact than about five certain financial markers. Like for most women, it seems like earning six figures, yeah, sure, that might be nice, but it's not a motivational goal. You know, it's not something that really gets them up in the morning, but impact does. And I think that's true for me too. I like making money. I love making money, actually, obviously. Um, yeah, and I love, as Linda knows, I love business model. It's one of my favorite topics.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

It really does, guys.

Linda 11:48

I really do. I really, I love when I find somebody who has a great business model, I get so excited. I love to talk to them about it. I love to study it. I like to understand it. Um, I just think there are so many amazing things that people can do with business model that work, that create amazing lifestyles. It's part I don't like it just for itself. I like what it does in the world. Um, but I think, you know, a business model that allows for a decent amount of earnings so that you do have that stability and maybe beyond, but also has impact. To me, that sounds more like success than just, oh my gosh, look how much I made this year.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

Yeah.

Linda 12:25

Yeah, I love that. And it totally resonates. And I feel like part of what jumped out at me when you were speaking to um, which I think you're such an amazing model of. And I think, you know, like homeschooling your kids and just what you said, like these are the two barometers of quote unquote success. You're a good human and a critical thinker, like the head and the heart are coming together here. But is that those were self-determined markers for you? Like that was something that is not, yes, of course, like society would probably many people would agree with those things, but oftentimes grades are what is is raised as being the paramount of like the most important. And I love that there are all these ways that you were already self-determining. Like, what is success to me? Like, what is my what do I value? And I think that feels important too. Like, what is really important to me? And those become the markers of success rather than some external benchmark that we've been taught that we're meant to strive for. Whether it's financial or grades or owning your own home, or you know, having the house with the dog and the two kids, and you know, whatever those external benchmarks are, is being able to define them for ourselves rather than letting society define them for us. Yes.

Beyond Numbers, Grades, And SMART Goals

Linda 13:50

And and I I would say even more than society, letting patriarchy decide them for us. Like I never really thought about until this very moment that it's all numbers-based. Like as uh kids, we're told like the grades are the most important thing. And as adults, we're told the money is the most important thing. It's it's the numbers that you have in the bank account. And that's so not how I want to live my life as a woman on this planet. There's so much depth and richness that does not come from those numbers. You know, it's like I with my kids especially, I really wanted them to love learning, not because it was tied to a grade. And I know as a as a therapist who worked with tons of kids and college students too, I could see where it did damage to them sometimes when success was measured by grades because they wouldn't take hard classes because they'd think, well, I really got to get all A's. My dad will kill me if I don't. So I can't take that chem class that looks really interesting to me. Instead, I have to take this class over here, you know, business math or something that's simple because I know I'll do well in it. And that's just not how I want to live my life, and it certainly isn't how I want my kids to live their lives.

unknown 14:57

Yeah.

Linda 14:58

You know, it's it's I think we use really shallow measures, which is part of the problem with this with the classic definition of success that you know, I don't like and I don't think it fits women for the most part. I would agree. It's even these things of like I I have a hatred of smart goals. I have to say, I don't like it. Yes, me too. I don't like them at all. I know some people love them. I I know some people love them. I know people think that's what coaching's all about. It isn't for Linda or me. No, there will be no smart goals. Um, but I think because of that, it's that same, it's that same ethos that unless it's measurable, how will you know if you succeed? Unless you can set a goal that is measurable. That's I believe the M and SMART. Maybe if I'm remembering correctly. Yes, I remembered something. Um, you know, that uh unless it's measurable, it doesn't count. Like that without the measurement, we won't be able to know if we've quote unquote succeeded. And how preposterous is that? You know what I mean? It's like, let me give all of my power away to this number of whatever it is, whether it's a a grade point average or a number in the bank or whatever it is that this is my thing that I'm going to set as my success rate. And of course, there are certain things like when it comes to finances. Again, yes, we don't want to, we know when we have enough, when there's a level of sufficiency to our lives. And uh neither of us obviously are advocating for not having that, because I think that will comes with its own host of nervous system situations and you know, as Laura well knows from from working with people around money. But I do think that when that becomes the the most prominent thing where what we unless it can be measured, it's somehow less important. When I think most people that at least that I know and have worked with, and most of most of the women that I know, that is not what is that is not what life is about. It's not what the numbers in the spreadsheet are not what life is about. That's not really where success is. It's oftentimes in the things that can't be measured, but they can be felt, they can be experienced. Yep. And I want more of that in my life, is that feeling of success or whatever word we might want to use for it. Yeah, well, and if you think about, like, say, Susan B. Anthony, for example, who, you know, early suffragette, worked so hard for women's right to vote, never got to vote herself. So by that definition, she wasn't successful, right? She didn't see it come to fruition. But she laid the groundwork for the rest of us who now can vote. So of course she was successful, but I think the definition needs to be more fluid too in that sense. And I love everything you just said. It's like if you just measure it by outcome, if you just measure it by the thing you can see, you're missing a whole big part of the story.

Unconventional Wins And Real Wealth

Linda 18:09

You know, I think about my kindergarten teacher. She was an amazing woman. I just adored her. And um, later, when I was 15, I started dating her son. And so I got to spend a lot of time in her household. And by most measures, she was not quote unquote successful. She she ended up being a single parent with three kids, divorced, no child support. She, you know, raised these kids on her own. She would go shopping after she got her paycheck, and there'd be food in the house. And by the end of the two weeks, there was very little, you know. And I'm looking back now, I feel terrible how much food I ate at their house. I just didn't get it. You know, I was a kid, so I was like, didn't think about the fact that, oh God, she's feeding four kids now instead of three. We had to get very inventive, though, before the next paycheck came around about what we were eating. We didn't care, you know. But an outsider looking would say, Oh, that's not very successful, right? But she also, like one year, decided, I think it was the year that her divorce became final. It was before I came on the scene. She decided to take her kids to Europe for the summer. So she took every bit of money she had, they went off to Europe, they backpacked through Europe. While she was there, she collected a backpack full of rocks and brought them back. And she came back home right before school started again with change in her pocket. That was all she had left, and then started school again and got her next paycheck. And over the next couple of years, she built the hearth to her fireplace out of the rocks she brought back from Europe, and and then rocks that she collected around locally too. And it was beautiful, it was absolutely beautiful, and she did it all by hand. Wow. Yeah, I mean, she was an amazing woman. I could tell you a million stories about her. I think about her all the time. She was such a role model for me. And I dated her son for five years, so I spent a lot of time in and out of their house. But by any like typical measure, she would be not that successful. But I think she was amazing. Yeah. Well, I think that there is certain, like now that you're saying that too, maybe part of the reason why I have such a visceral kind of negative reaction to the word success is because it's so often uh associated with conventional living and conventional choices. Yes. You know, and imagine from like on paper, if you're kind of living paycheck to paycheck, the being on the outside and saying, like, oh, well, I'm gonna take with money that I have and I'm taking my kids to Europe and we're gonna do a backpacking trip. Like, think about the experience, like the richness of experience, the richness of memories, of being able to, you know, be in a different culture. Like it's such a different way of looking at life and what success or richness or wealth really means, but it's also very unconventional. Very unconventional. She did all kinds of things that were unconventional. We don't have enough time here to talk about all of them.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

But we could have a whole like separate podcast about this woman. I'm like, I want to know more.

Linda 21:02

We could. I mean, she was truly amazing, and you're right. And and people did laugh. My own family did. My dad's still laughing about some of the things that she did. I didn't find them funny, but he thinks they were funny because she was so unconventional. But you're right. And I I don't know if I've ever really thought about it this way before, but I think these traditional measures of success get used against us. It's the ways in which we're tried, we're told to stay in line. You know, it's like you got to fit this model, you got to fit this conventional view of what it looks like to be successful. Yeah, yeah. I would a hundred percent agree with that. That that is a mechanism that becomes a cage. It does. That someone else's version of success and attempting to live up to it becomes just another cage where we don't make our own choices, those choices are already kind of made. For us, we just do the next thing that we're supposed to do in order to check the box. I think yeah. Yeah. And it's hard when somebody has a real like my dad's whole thing about you have to own your own home. This is his whole thing. You have to, you know, it's like it it does not nothing else who do counts unless you own your own home. It's so old-fashioned. And you know, I haven't owned my own home since 2004. I sold it, and I've been very happy living as a renter and as a nomad in more recent years. Um, but boy, that doesn't sit well with my dad. And it comes up all the time. Yeah. And it can be hard, it can be hard. Like it's that constant need of yeah, standing and owning our own path rather than owning our home. It's like owning our own path, even when, yes, familial or societal forces try to push us in a different direction. And I think it can be hard. You know, it's like oftentimes they also want to give people the benefit of the doubt. They, you know, they probably want what they think is the best for you. Right. Yeah, everyone always, that's the problem. It's like everyone always means well. Yeah. It's but it's it's that how do we cultivate a different level of love and caring and meaning well that isn't I'm gonna try to push my own definition of what I think your life should look like on you as a way to kind of make you know that I care. Yeah. Well, it's that how I'm gonna push my own agenda on you. You know, it's like, and it does it is couched in parental care. Um, but you know, I have to remind myself, I have 59 years old. I really don't need my dad to dictate what my life looks like, you know. And there are parts of owning your home that are wonderful, and there are parts, as we have talked about, that you're like, I do not miss this at all. Absolutely. I do not miss home ownership. Um, not that I wouldn't go back at some point, I might under the right circumstances, but and it's changed over time, which he also doesn't get. You know, it's like he lives in a part of the world where it's still 1980. Um, that's it's just a very conventional place. And I don't think he really gets it. That right now homeownership is does not guarantee wealth like it did when he he spent $13,000 building our house, the house I lived in when I was a child. You know, it's like I my cars have cost more than that. You know, so he doesn't get it. That it isn't it's not guaranteed to appreciate anymore like it used to. It's not guaranteed to be a source of wealth like it used to be. Uh, many people end up selling their houses for less than they're worth. They actually lose on those deals. So, but he doesn't really get that.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

Yeah.

When Other People’s Benchmarks Cage You

Linda 24:52

You know, but I I think it's a a case in point, we don't have to keep going on about it, of really critically thinking about what fits for you and what doesn't, and and also times change. So it's one of the more challenging things I think about being a woman who wants to be out of cages is to also try to educate those around us and sometimes just let it go, because sometimes that's not possible to educate them about how times change too. Some of the things that used to work for people don't work anymore. Yeah, you know, they just don't fit the current times. So thinking that you're gonna leave high school and get educated for a specific career and stay in that career for the rest of your life doesn't work. No, that's not gonna be hardly anyone's experience at this point anymore. And you'd want to be a few. Maybe if you go into a trade that somehow magically is insulated from any kind of robotics and whatnot. But I don't even know what that trade would be. Yeah, I don't know either. And employer shift, career shift, all kinds of things shift.

SPEAKER_03 25:56

Yeah.

Linda 25:57

And so success doesn't look like that anymore. That used to be the definition. And I think that I think that's part of the problem is that the larger meta-narrative of what success is is still kind of stuck in that version from like the 1950s. Yes. That that still has uh it still occupies this kind of imaginal space as what success, how how it's going to look on the outside. And I think, like you said, it is it's thinking critically about ourselves, about our own life, about our own values, about what we want, what we need in that particular season, and again, about the larger pieces around maybe this doesn't actually work anymore. This isn't the safe bet or the guarantee or that it that it might once have been, or might once have symbolized even. Sometimes I wonder if it's just the the actual concrete thing, or it's like, what does this symbolize? You know, this idea of like, oh, it's time to, you're settling down. Like there's some kind of, and now you're gonna be an adult and you're gonna make, you know, more comfortable conventional decisions. Like, what does that where does that get to live? Not only in the real world, but also like in the imaginal realm. Yeah. Boy, my life's been the opposite of that.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

You're like, blow that shit up. Let's try something different. Let's play with what this looks like.

Linda 27:24

It's so true. But also, there's a whole role of capitalism in there too, because the whole thing about success, like we can tell who's successful because we can look at them and we can tell by the car they drive, the house they live in, what they wear, you know, the vacations they take, the schools their kids go to, all those things. And actually, we can't. Like anybody who looks at people's bank accounts or has, you know, privy to people's real financial stories would know that some people they don't own those things. They're like in debt up to their eyeballs, trying to look a certain way. Um, but you know, it's it's very part of consumerism and capitalism to also voice that definition upon us, which is another cage. It really it is. If if you have to buy the trappings of success, that means you're stuck often in a career that you don't want to be in anymore because you have to pay for it. Yes. The golden handcuffs, if you want. Yes. And sometimes they're bronze handcuffs, handcuffs, you know, it's like you're not even making that much money, but you're on the treadmill. Yes. Yep. And it's hard to it can be hard to get off. And I feel like, yeah, what you were saying there too, just projecting it's kind of like the whole fake it till you make it kind of thing. Like the most important thing becomes to project the image of what we think success would be and hope that one day that's going to make us feel success on the inside. I think we have it backwards. I think it's like I do too. Rather than doing that, it's like, okay, let's let's get clear on what it again, what is what is it that matters to me? What would success look like in my life? Because it could look entirely different. It could look not like having the fancy car, it could be like having no car and taking public transportation, or it could be, you know, like something, yeah, just something entirely different and getting clear on that from within ourselves instead of like, I'm gonna go get all the trappings of the successful life so that that way I can feel like I'm successful. And I from coming in the self-help industry, there's a lot of that messaging in terms of like manifestation. And you know, it's like you go buy the fancy dress so that you can like put it on and feel how it feels, and as if that's like, I don't, I just find it to be kind of bullshit, but me too, me too. Absolutely. But it is, it is, it is really foisted upon us in a variety of ways. It's the commercials, it's the magazines, it's the self-help books, it's you know, all that kind of thing. And you know, maybe a successful life looks like having minimal expenses so that you have time to to paint every day, so that you can work part-time at some crummy job so that you can do something else that you really love. You know, I have a friend who loves to Yeah, Linda's raising her hand. Like, am I your friend? Yes, you are my friend, but they're not the one I was about to mention. I have a friend who's really into um wildlife rescue, and so you know, doesn't make any money. She does work part-time at it, but mostly she works another job that she doesn't love, but that's okay, to create the funds so that she can do what she really loves, which is wildlife rescue. Um, things like that. Where I I look at those people and I think they're very successful. They're successful because they're happy and they're feet they're fulfilled and they're meeting their obligations.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Yeah.

Linda 30:40

You know, which they've purposely kept yeah, they purposely kept those obligations to be minimal, but yeah, you know, which I think can be smart. Well, yeah, because otherwise, again, I think it comes back to getting clear on our own our own truth, our own values, instead of chasing those external trappings, because again, that's what makes our whole fucking economy go around is the constant chasing of some kind of external marker. I mean, I think it was in that plastics book that I read, um, Plastic Ink. I can't remember the name of the um the author off the top of my head, but where they were talking about kind of the the dawn of modern advertising and how it was created by, I want to say it was like Freud's grandkid or something. Is that right? Yeah, relative of Freud, yeah. Yeah, using and they could see how they could use that to just sell goods, like that. What people it was no longer about buying something that you need, like I need a new salt and pepper grinder or something. You know, it was like, no, what we're selling is like we're trying to appeal to somebody's unacknowledged, unconscious desires that we can then try to, you know, hook into and be like, oh, I'm gonna sell you this mascara and this image of what your life can be like if you have long, luscious lashes, you know, or whatever it is. Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, even Henry Ford, when he he said, you know, people want the newer, better horse and buggy, but what they really need is a car. And that's what he went around and created the automobiles. And he said that, you know, it's like I knew what people really needed, even though they hadn't imagined it yet for themselves, which seems kind of brilliant, but it's also at the same time this idea of no, I'm gonna create this greater need. Yeah, you know, it's there are so many things that have been created for us that we didn't ask for. Yeah. But we end up wanting a needing. Netflix is a great example. We never really thought about back then it was discs coming in the mail, you know. Um, we I never thought, like, oh gee, I wish these would show up at my doorstep. But once they did, everybody wanted it, you know? Oh, yeah. And then that that's shifted again now. Nobody wants it. But you know, it's just fascinating how that happens. But they create these things that we think we can't live without. Yes, creating the demand for them. And then we forget that we actually did live without them for a really long time. Very long time. And they're convenient, a lot of them are convenient, you know. Lots of things I love that I couldn't even dream up when I was a kid because they didn't exist. Right. Yeah. So it's not that, but but but I think being aware of the fact of so many things are sold to us that we have not been walking around thinking, gee, I wish I had this. No, I mean, it reminds me of all of the the this is kind of an aside note, but like all of the pharmaceutical drugs, like we'll watch, you know, Jeopardy or sometimes Wheel of Fortune. Most of the time we'll watch it on the delay because then you can fast forward through all the commercials. But otherwise, it's just commercials for all these pharmaceutical drugs. You know, it's like, ask your doctor if so this and this is right for you. And it's like planting this little seed of, oh, maybe I do need this thing, you know, like, oh, maybe I do need that, or oh, I'm gonna keep up with the Joneses and I do need that new outdoor set. And you know, that whole idea that, like, oh, the outdoor, if I had the perfect outdoor set, it's gonna make me go outside more. When it's like, no, you don't go outside because you don't have any time to be outside, regardless of what set is out there. You know what I mean? You can just go sit out there. You're too busy earning the money to buy the thing, to buy the set, and that's what happens. And it's like when we buy into these like versions of success, and again, they're so prevalent because that's what makes the whole thing kind of go around is this constant need for more and a lack of satiation or sufficiency, or like this is

Reverse Engineering Desire Before You Buy

Linda 34:42

good. I feel my version of success is having space in my schedule to be able to go sit outside on my old ass, you know, chair that's out there. It doesn't need to be the perfect chair with the most beautiful cushion because that's not what I'm out there for. I'm out there to enjoy the fresh air and the sunshine, the wind on my skin. It's free. Yes. For now. Until they figure out a way to sell it to us. And my god, they figured out a way to sell water to us. So, you know. Pretty soon. I mean, come on, they I'm pretty sure you can go and get like oxygen treatment, can't you? So they probably already have started selling air back to us. They're like, oh, we've polluted it so badly, but here we'll sell you the solution to it. We're laughing, but it's probably true. But yeah, I think it's so important to slow down enough to think about like what is it that actually matters to me? And and particularly, I think it, you know, when you hit midlife too, because so much of what people acquire, I mean, you can't take it with you, obviously. And it has to go somewhere. So when you when you pass on from this world, where's your stuff go? And for me, just having watched that through several older relatives where they die, and then some all the rest of us have to deal with all their stuff, and you just think, wow, this really is kind of meaningless. I know there were things that like my grandmother, for example, she collected some beautiful antiques and they meant things, and we all tried to take them. You know, it's a big enough family we could each take a couple and they go in the family, but you know, it's like to make that your life about that, and then just to have it be auctioned off in the front yard, which is what we did with my grandmother's stuff. It's like, man, I want my life to be about something other than that.

SPEAKER_03 36:28

Yeah, yeah.

Linda 36:30

And I think kind of like it's almost like can we re like reverse engineer advertising? So it's like, let's say there is something. I'm gonna try this myself because I was thinking about it with the outdoor set, you know, because sometimes I'll dream about getting a Bronco. Oh, a green Bronco, but I'm like, what is the green Bronco symbolize to me? It symbolizes going on a road trip, it symbolizes a little bit of adventure, it symbolizes a little more of an outdoorsy lifestyle. Do I need the green Bronco for any of those things? No. Am I gonna get that from the green bronco? Hell no. I'm just gonna be driving around Dallas in a green Bronco and be like, now I have an extra car payment. But I think there's that question that if we pause before we purchase, we can reverse engineer that Freud guy, you know, the his grandkid or cousin or whoever it was, and begin to ask, okay, like what desire in me, or what need that isn't being met, or desire that's kind of latent is this scratching at? And really getting clear in naming it, because I think that gets us also closer to what what are we wanting? What is that definition of success that's underneath that maybe we don't let ourselves really think about or feel until it's like, oh, I'll just get the I just want the green Bronco. Yeah, no, I think that's really important. I think so much of what we buy and and dream about buying is to meet a need that it absolutely cannot meet.

unknown 38:10

Yeah.

Linda 38:11

And it can actually go in the reverse, kind of like with the you were saying with the you know, the outdoor furniture. You spend a thousand dollars on this beautiful outdoor furniture set, and now you have to work more in order to pay it off. So you're not outdoors, you're not you're not outdoors and enjoying the beautiful furniture. It's the same thing with the car, you know. It's like and I think cars have done an amazing job at selling us uh the illusion of freedom. I mean, look at look at all those truck commercials with everybody on there, like we're on a boulder and we're like, you know, going over, you're like, you're cruising around the freeway and DMW. You're taking up the parking lot, goddamn.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Exactly. Like you're you're not fucking on any boulders. You're you're like on the cruising, the flattest, most paved surface ever in the history of man.

Linda 38:58

It's so true. But I also think when you take the time to really discern the meaning behind a purchase or what it might might, if a need it might meet, when you find something actually will meet a need, it's all that more meaningful. It's like there are things you can buy that actually do meet needs.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Yeah.

Linda 39:15

And then at least for me, I love those things. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad I have this. This means a lot to me. It does the thing I wanted it to do.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

Yeah.

Linda 39:24

But but that it otherwise it's that thing would be buried under a pile of other things that don't meet needs and just weigh me down. Yeah. Or that to kind of borrow a Marie Kondo phrase that spark joy, you know, like of course we I have things that I own, like clothing that I own that when I put it on, I'm like, ooh, yay, I love this dress. You know, I feel happy in it. And I think those are like the joyous parts of life too. Like, we don't want to go, you know, it's not like all of these things are bad, but I think they are just ripe for uh curiosity, for reflection, for a little bit of investigation, so that we can again redefine what success is to us in that moment, what it is that we really, what we're really wanting, what we're what wishing to contribute to the world uh in a way that is not dictated to us. Yes. And and what are the options for getting there? I think the other thing is that the first idea isn't always the only idea. It's like, you know, if you want to create a certain amount of money in the world, sure you could go out and get a job with that salary, but what else could you do?

unknown 40:29

Yeah.

Linda 40:29

Like

Creativity, AI, And Your Next Definition

Linda 40:30

what else? How else might that money be able to come your way? Um you know, is there a service you could sell, something you could offer? Is there some other thing? Could you sell all those things you bought that didn't meet the needs? Um, you know, there are a lot of possibilities. Yeah, I love that. I was just reading an article um by my friend Lana Price. She has a new blog called Prag Magical. I can link it in the uh in the in the comment section. But she was talking about that, and especially as we're coming up on, you know, as we've spoken about on the podcast before, like with the the dawn of AI and the increase of robotics and all these ways, it's like we're gonna, I think we're gonna need to access those levels of creativity because again, I think the more conventional models may not be as easily accessible either as they once were. And so the more that we can start thinking outside of the box a little bit, the better off we'll be. Yes, I have the feeling we're moving toward an era where success is not going to be created through the job that you have because a lot of people aren't gonna have jobs. So it'll be interesting. That's your version of success. You're screwed. It depends on where what industry you're in, but man, they're coming for a lot of them. So I think it will be interesting. This could be a a good byproject. We'll probably just have to go through a difficult time first before we get there, but it'll be interesting to see. So for now, oh my gosh, so much juiciness, as always. Thank you, Laura, for my wonderful Laura. Better than a cup of coffee on a Friday afternoon will pick me up. It makes it sound a little weird. I know, but right back at you, Linda. Well, we'd love to hear from you, dear listeners, as always. What is what is success? What is your relationship to it? What does it mean to you at this phase of life that you're in now? How might it have changed? Yeah. And how might you want it to change? Yeah. How might you want to go to Camp Vibrant? Okay, we'll let you go. Come to come to Camp Vibrant, please do come to Camp Vibrant. All right, dear listeners. Until next time. Until next time.