Cultivating Joy Even in Life's Hardest Moments

Life rarely arrives in clean chapters. Sometimes you’re walking through heartbreak while also feeling more in love, more free, or more alive than you have in years and then you’re left wondering if you’re doing it “wrong.” We sit down to talk about holding polarities: the ability to hold grief and joy at the same time, without letting one erase the other.

We get personal about anticipatory grief, the strange guilt that can show up when you’re still happy though you are not "supposed" to be, and the stories many of us inherited about “appropriate” feelings. 

We also widen the lens to women’s empowerment and the patriarchy’s quiet rules: don’t get too big, don’t celebrate too loudly, don’t tempt fate, and if your family is struggling you should sacrifice your success. We question who benefits when women shrink and we name joy as a real form of resilience, especially in difficult political times. You’ll leave with language for mixed emotions, practical ways to stop the guilt spiral, and a reminder we come back to again and again: no feeling is final.

If this conversation helps you, subscribe, share it with a friend who’s carrying a lot, and leave a quick review so more people can find the podcast. What’s one polarity you’re holding right now?

Book Named:

The Big Leap: Conquer Your Hidden Fear and Take Life to the Next Level 

Angela Davis quote: 

"I am no longer accepting the things I cannot change. I am changing the things I cannot accept".

Rainer Maria Rilke quote:

“Let everything happen to you
Beauty and terror
Just keep going
No feeling is final”

Transcript

Welcome And Friend Shoutouts

Linda 0:02

Hello, everyone. Welcome to episode 14, season five of the Woman on Cage podcast. My name is Linda Katz, and I'm here with my beloved dear friend and co-conspirator in all things feminine and feminist liberation, Ms. Laura Gates Lupton. And if you are not familiar with Laura, which if you listen to the podcast, you probably are at this point. But if for anyone who is new, I would highly recommend that you go check out the Good with Money Substack that Laura has. She publishes these amazing, very practical Monday, Monday, Monday money missives. That's a hard one to say. It is. And I think she still has a few spots available in her newest offering. Two, two spots remain in her newest offering, where it is an individual session where Laura will be out walking and talking and doing amazing coaching with you. I think it was very affordable, if I'm not mistaken, it was like 125 per session. I mean, this guy's like 50% off. Yeah. So seriously, like if you are in a season where you could use some potent, powerful listening coaching, the um somebody who can see you and stand for your highest good, your personal development, your growth, like please get in there. Like Laura is so amazing at coaching and being that stand for women. And I think that we need that in our lives because so often the forces that be try to make us smaller than we really are. And so, what a gift to have someone in your corner who wants to help you expand. So go check that out. Good with money, Substack people. All right. It's wonderful to be here with you today. Thank you, my dear friend. It's wonderful to be here with you too. I look forward to this. We didn't record last week or recently. I I've lost track of time, honestly. We missed a recording because I was away. Um, and I really, really missed it. I missed having these conversations with you and our time together. And it's always such a delight. And I'm so grateful that we had this. And the main reason for that is because of Linda. It's she's just such a joy to be with. She's so fun to talk with and to be with and to share things with. And, you know, I think my coaching grew exponentially when I was Linda's client because I learned so much from her around holding a deeper container and you know, really um slowing down the coaching process. One of the things I loved about the work with you, Linda, is how you take it really slowly. And I wasn't doing that so much before. And I see the value in it now. And I love that in our relationship and our friendship, like we can do that too. But in terms of conversations about things or whatever, there's no rush, there's never any hurry. It feels like a very spacious, lovely time together, no matter what it is, whether we're on here or boxing or whatever. Um, and you know, if you want more of Linda, she's not coaching right now, but she does have a fabulous book called Homecoming that's on Amazon. And she also has a Substack called Wild Woman in the Burbs. It's a very lovely Substack. I love reading what she writes. She's such a soulful person, and it comes through in her writing, whether in her book or her Substack. She's such a deep thinker. She has so much wisdom. She's also funny, so so very funny. That comes across too. She's the whole thing. She's the whole package, which is one of the reasons I love spending this time with you, Linda. So good to be here with you. Oh, thank you. I always get like, ee, gushy. Yes. Me too. So, what are we going to be talking about today? We are going to talk about holding polarities, which I will explain that a little more. Um, this has been coming up in my life in several different ways lately. And I was thinking about it when I was driving, I did a 16-hour drive earlier this week to drive back from New York to Minnesota. And um, while I was driving, I was thinking about this a lot. And then I talked to Linda and we thought it'd make a good podcast topic. What I mean by holding polarities is in my life right now, I have something going on that's really quite sad. Um, my dad is not well. He's dying essentially. Um, but we've known that for a while, but he has he has a new diagnosis, uh cancer diagnosis now that we don't know exactly what that means, but it's clear that his time is pretty limited. Um, and at the same time, I'm in the relationship in which I'm extremely happy, like the happiest I've been in a long time. And that's been true for the last couple of years. Like this new phase of life for me has been joyous and liberating and amazing and wonderful, and I'm holding both. And I can't, I don't know about you, dear listeners. I would love to know. And if you want to tell us, this would be really helpful. But were you taught to hold these things simultaneously when you were a kid? Because I sure wasn't. I was very much taught that there's one way to feel for any given situation, and you can't feel two things at once. And you sort of better have the right feeling too. Whatever's going on, it better sort of match up with what the adults around you think the feeling should be. There's there can be inappropriate feelings. Um, I've had to unlearn a lot of that. I know when Linda was my coach, we talked a lot about this. Um, a very dear friend of mine said to me at one point, we were talking about um a photograph of me that I had. I was leaving for college. I was sitting in my bedroom at home surrounded by boxes, and I look sad in the photo. And I said to mom, Oh, I look so sad in that photo. And she goes, Yeah, and I don't get it because you were so happy to go to college. Why would you be sad? Like she couldn't understand that both could be true at the same time. And my friend said, Yeah, as if you can't feel two things at once. And even though I I'd come to know that was true, I hadn't heard it put that way so succinctly. And I was like, Well, of course you can. I just hadn't really thought of it that way. Yes. And this now, this version of it now, many, many years later, is even bigger to me. Because these are it's not just like an event where you're like, sure, I'm happy to go, but I'm also leaving this. Right now, it's like an ongoing period of time in which there's this sad thing unfolding, but there's this really happy, joyous thing unfolding. And I'm holding both. And so we want to talk about that. And Linda's had those times in her life too, and maybe you'd like to share one of them now or say what this has been like for you, Linda. Yeah, I love that. It gave me the full, the full goosebumps. And I think you're so right. We don't we don't talk about this enough in our culture. I definitely don't think it's taught. Um, which I is also indicative of the fact it feels like it's a core aspect of emotional maturity is being able to hold multiple feelings at the same time. And I think it says something about where we're at culturally and societally that that is uh rather unusual or misunderstood. Um, but yeah, I think that the, I mean, the first, the most significant time that comes up for me would probably be when I published my book, which was this huge like moment of joy and pride and expansion. This like it felt like a culmination, a graduation of sorts of this, you know, 15-year time period of my life of creating this body of work that I expressed through coaching and writing for yeah, about a decade. And three and a half days after that, my beloved soul dog Sophie passed away. And I had she was 14 and a half, and so the time period of this book, like the meat of it, was really the exact same as the time period with Sophie. And this was something that I had known was coming, you know, because she was she was elderly, she had dementia for the last year of her life. You know, she we could see that she was losing weight, losing strength in her body. Um, and so it was also this like that that anticipatory grief that had been happening. And it was one of those moments where it could, I could have made it all one or the other. Like it could have been like the just the grief. And this is something that I think, you know, when we were talking about this earlier, we tend to focus more on the heavy, hard feelings. We tend to give them more weight, as if they are somehow more real or more important. And it's it's this interesting, even that is a paradox, because I think in some cases we either go one way or the other. Like the the heavy, hard feelings are the most important, and like, well, those are more real than the joy or the gratitude, or you know, like that's almost frivolous. Or we go the opposite direction of I'm not gonna be with these feelings at all. I'm not gonna have, you know, I'm just gonna keep marching forward, I'm not gonna deal with the grief and whatnot. Um, but I think it's much harder to be with the simultaneous pieces. And even just in Sophie's passing, there was so much beauty. There was so much gratitude for me for, you know, what who she had been and our journey together and how much I loved her and getting to spend all that time with her for her holding on until after the book was published. Like, there was so much gratitude that existed at the same time. And I remember, you know, like I was a part as I was leading up to this moment, I had joined a pet loss group on Facebook because I wanted to kind of be in that space of like how do people do this? And it was helpful during the anticipatory loss period, but after she passed, I found that it wasn't helpful anymore. And I think I haven't thought of exactly why until just now, but I it's it was because the so many of the stories that were shared were solely about the grief. Like there was people who, you know, understandably when you loose anyone that you're close with, you know, that but months later they were like, I can't get out of bed. And I would compare myself to that, like, oh, but does that mean like I didn't love her in the same way? Because I also feel this joy and this gratitude and this like just immense awe before the mystery of life at the same time, like, and I think it was, I think it's that. It's like, we how do we do that? How do we hold both of these things? How do we hold the grief and the gratitude? How do we not get mired in the heavy things? How do but how do we also not ignore them altogether? And this is, I think, part of being a human being. I think it's really the juice of being a human being, and we've done a great disservice by not normalizing and modeling that for the younger generations. I agree. And I think that there's the grief, gratitude, and then there's the third G, which is guilt. Um, and I feel like you can have it in either direction. You know, you could be so sad about Sophie dying, you could feel guilty for not honoring the book, right? Or you could be excited about the book and be think feel guilty because you're like, oh, does this mean that Sophie didn't mean that much to me? You know, it can go in either way, but I it definitely shows up as that third unwanted partner. Yes, yes. And that was something, especially in that group that I saw, like, and you know, with pets, especially, because there's this choice point that oftentimes comes of like, oh, did we did we decide to end their life too early? Did we wait too long and they suffered? And it doesn't matter. I've realized it doesn't matter which option you do, guilt will come with that because it's this outsized responsibility for another living being that you love with your whole heart, that it's like it gets to come along for the ride. It can come in, but it doesn't have to be the sole thing, right? It's like it doesn't have to, it doesn't have to be the one thing that is felt or experienced. Right. Right. And I I think it can take the form of, like you said, like feeling like you didn't care enough if you're if you manage to still be happy at the same time. We and I've had clients in my therapy office who've had like an extended period of grieving and then start to come out of that a little bit and feel horrible because they feel like, oh, I you know, I didn't think about my mom today, and I've been thinking of her every day since she died. And what does that mean? You know, it's like, well, you're learning to live with it, is what it means. But you know, people would put meaning on top of it that meant that somehow they were bad or the relationship didn't matter. And that's not necessarily true. It's like part of grieving is learning to live with the grief. It doesn't ever really disappear, it's still there in some form or another. But you know, our lives do go on. That's part of what happens here in this earthly realm, is our lives do go on until they don't, you know. But we have to learn to live, and I do mean actually, it's a verb. I mean if they learn to live with the loss, whatever it is. Um, and I've just as I've been thinking about this situation with my dad, it's like it is really sad. My dad lost his best friend of 85 years uh two and a half weeks ago. His friend died, and of course that's confounding things for him. My dad's the last living member of his high school class. Um, and he's you know, I was with him and he's my dad's usually pretty upbeat and he was really sad. And um I was definitely feeling it, but I'm also very much aware of the excitement that I have over my own life, and I'm grateful that I don't have to diminish diminish that or dismiss that. Yes, you know, I'm grateful that it gets to be both. Yes, yes, because I think when we have, especially with something like you know, a parent who is who is sad, if we have if we're still in that kind of good girl energy, the propensity is to like drop everything in our own lives and go to take care of somebody else's emotions, because that's I think what we've been taught a lot of times. And I just I love that alongside, you know, witnessing your father's grief over losing his best friend, of being the last living member of his class, of you know, beginning to approach the end of his own life and reckoning with his own mortality, but being there with him and also being fully in yourself and in your own experience and in the beautiful unfolding of your life in this season. Yeah. Thank you. That's a beautiful way to put it. It's just it's just really wonderful to see because I think we again as a culture, we are not good at holding the both. So we tend to go one way or the other, you know. I think I've shared this story on the podcast before of a woman that I met at a retreat whose whose mom was passing away, who was gonna go to, you know, she had another retreat that was she was attending. And she was feeling all of this guilt and making it mean something that she potentially would go choose to spend time with her mother before her mother passed rather than going to this retreat. Like it was somehow neglecting herself. And I was like, but if you want to do that, like this is a major moment of growth and relationship and something that is deeply going to be meaningful in your life. Like it doesn't have to mean that all of the work that you've done to become your own person now is somehow negated. But I think we bring all that with you, yes, I think yes, exactly. That's what allows you to make the choice and be there with them, you know. But I it's it is just such um, and and perhaps it's due to you know, our social media, our internet age, our clickbait kind of age where things are so oversimplified, as we talk about a lot of the time, that we don't we don't hold nuance, we don't invite it, we don't invite the the mixed feelings. Yes. Yes, I think the oversimplification is a really important point that we tend to. I don't want to say dumb everything down, but anyone does not. I mean we kind of do. Well, especially when it comes to emotional development, I think we do. I think we have a very limited understanding of emotional development and emotional maturity and what that what that looks like. We have a very rigid kind of definition too of what maturity looks like. And and part of that definition tends to be that you take the bad stuff more seriously. That's a mature way to be, you know, it's none of this happiness shit, you know? It's like don't do that. Um, but uh true emotional maturity really is being able to be present to whatever is, yes, and which is almost always a mixed pack. Yes, it's very rare that everything is going in one direction and happy and whatever. Even a beautiful, like when I see something that is beautiful to me, like really strikingly beautiful, oftentimes it brings tears forth because in the beauty is grief and gratitude, because I know that this is going to end. Like we are gifted, perhaps. Sometimes we feel burdened by the fact that we are aware of mortality, our own and everything else's that we love and that we can see. And of course, there's like, oh, there's the awe, and there's the openness, and like, oh my god, this like lovely moment, and then there's this little kernel of of grief that's hidden in there because I know that this will end, or I know that this is just like you know, this heart-opening, expansive moment that it will come, it will all come to an end.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yeah, yeah.

Linda 19:05

And I think being able to acknowledge that that it's both for me personally, I'm I'm experiencing it right now as being really expansive to be able to acknowledge that there are these polarities in my life and to to live with both of them. And you know, like I'm so happy to be home in Minnesota with my partner. Um, but I woke up the other morning feeling really sad. And so I had to sit for him and think, okay, what's the sadness about? Because it clearly wasn't about being here. And I thought, oh yeah, it's about my dad. And so I sat with that for a little while. And part of me is kind of did say to myself, like, I don't really want to feel sad right now. I like the happiness better. So I admit that was there. Um, but I think not resisting it to let it pass more quickly than if I were really fighting it.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Yes.

The Story We’re Punished For Joy

Linda 19:57

You know, and I was able to get back into the like uh the joy of like being home again and you know, being here and still at times feel that like twinge of sadness. There are things that come up. I'm texting with my siblings, you know, I'm like we're talking about how we're gonna handle things going forward, and so there's a lot of things that have to be dealt with, you know. But yeah, it's it's both. And I feel like that's you know, when we were talking about it too, there's this you you were saying, like, I just have this feeling, like, well, that's just life. I think is what you said. Like, this is just life, like that's what life life. Um, it's it is all of these things at the same time. And I know for myself when I'm not in my fullest, most grounded version, sometimes when things like this happen, I begin to feel victimized by life, but especially if because sometimes it's like for whatever reason, not always, but there tends to be like the big, expansive, beautiful thing. And then on the other side is like the painful, hard, difficult thing. And there have been times where I've had very stern conversations. Like, I don't, I'm not like a religious person, but I'd be like, God, like what the hell are you doing? You know, like I just got this and then this. Why can't it just be good? Can it just be good for three fucking days? Like, yeah, why couldn't I enjoy this longer? Exactly. That I've had, yeah. It's and that's that's there too, you know. It's like, but when I've come into that, if I get too stuck in it, again, it's because the the hard, heavy thing is taking so much of the space that it does can feel like there is like a certain level of like, oh, I'm being punished for the joy, which I'm like, oh, that's a story that I don't like, but that I do occasionally subscribe to, which out without realizing it, is that like, oh, the flip side, it's It's waiting for the other shoe to drop. That feeling is the fear that we have that we are going to be punished for joy and what the good things are in our life. And so we better be anticipating something bad on the other side. And never, but never do I think in those moments, I haven't before we started talking about, you know, this conversation, that, oh, well, maybe it could just be life, but it could also be like, oh, but I never see the good thing as being this gift that makes it easier to deal with the bad thing.

unknown 22:34

Right.

Linda 22:34

Like if I'm going to believe that one thing is being given to me, why do I always choose to believe that I'm being tested rather than like, oh, this is just something that happens. But here's this good thing that will help carry you through. Yeah. No, I love that question because I there is that thing that comes up because we were always told as kids, you know, like, don't get too big for your britches. Don't, oh, don't celebrate too much, you know, that it'll get taken away or a bad thing will happen or whatever. Don't kegger chickens before they've hatched. Yeah, the other shoe will drop, all that stuff. And so there is, there has been for me definitely in the past a tendency to think that that like, oh yeah, like I was I was too happy. So this thing is this thing has come along to try to take my happiness away. And and but if you can only feel one thing at a time, then it does feel like it's taking your happiness away because clearly the thing you're gonna feel is this sad loss in front of you. Um I think that's one of the things I'm in enjoying, sort of, about this is not having my happiness take away, be take away at the same time that I am also feeling really sad. Yeah. I like that I I get to still have the happiness. Yes. And like I love the word that you used, feeling expansive, that there's space enough in you and in your life for both, often at the same time. Yeah. And I think that the for me, there's the feeling of it in my body, and then there's the story that accompanies it. And it makes me question some of those stories of I was too happy, like I got too big for my riches, I had to be cut down a peg, you know, like all of the things that we're somehow taught that I think also take away from the joyful moments, because it of course it takes away from the joyful moment if you're like, oh shit, what's gonna happen to take it away? Yeah. You know, there's the constant adoption.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Keeping Women Small With Fear

Motherhood Pressure To Self-Sacrifice

Linda 24:40

And then we can even, you know, it reminds me of um, oh, what's that book called? The The Big Leap. Oh, yeah. Right. Where it's like sometimes we can even manifest on the other side that something is gonna happen because it's so it can be so uncomfortable to feel the good things, to feel the joy, to feel the expansiveness, to feel the love, and to like sit with it and allow it to really come in, to allow ourselves to soak in it and to be with it rather than oh no, this is this is too much goodness, and so I'm just gonna preempt the universe by stabbing my toe or something like that. No, it's yes, absolutely. And you know, at the end of 2025, when people were talking about like the year, the retrospective of the year and stuff, and people are talking about what a shit show it's been because of our government and everything. And stuff Richard and I were sort of looking at each other going, well, no, it's been a pretty good year for us. It's like it was sort of this sort of almost secretly almost not wanting to say it to anybody else for that those kinds of reasons of like, you know, you don't want to be you don't want to tempt fate, be too braggy, be whatever, you know, about all that stuff. But you know, we're like, oh, it's been kind of nice. Yes. Or like we yeah, oh, sorry, go ahead. No, I did I can say something before I you do you want to? No. Okay. Um, I what I wanted to say too, though, is I really wonder um how much of these stories are lobbed more at women around keeping us small. And I have not surveyed the men in my life. So if any men happen to be listening and you want to tell us, I'd love to know. But were you told not to be too big for your britches? Were you told to watch for the other shoe to drop? Were you told not to be too happy, not to celebrate too much, not to be too loud and big with it? I'm wondering about that in this moment. Oh, I don't even have, I'm like, oh, that is yes. I mean, just from what I know from um, and of course, like the inner experience can be different, but from watching and witnessing the men in my life, I don't necessarily see that. Yeah, I don't either. I think that it is that women are yeah, it I think it is something that is potentially meant to keep women small. And we have so many stories around that, you know, like just myths and things around this is what happens when women get too big. They're gonna be cut down or they're, you know. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, and how much of it is around taking risks or doing things that, you know, really going for something that you want and getting it. Like there are so many cautionary tales around that. Like that's you know, sometimes not admitting that you want it, you know, like being careful what you you know, what you say to others, what you say to yourself. And it just makes me wonder how much of that is wrapped up in this idea that we should be quiet and humble about our happiness. Yes, lest something terrible happen. Yeah. Which has its own special grief, just hearing that, like that we should be humble and quiet about our happiness. That like, because I think it's also like you were saying, keeping women small. And when we see other women living big, audacious, colorful, joyful lives, other women are like, I'll have what she's having, you know. Like, wait, that's an option. And I I do think that that is a threat to the status quo and this threat to the the systems that need us to stay small and quiet, yeah, and trudging through life. I think so too. I think so too. I have a a client who she's hit her best level in business ever. She's doing really well right now. Um, and it's amazing to see how her, I'm not gonna say too much about what she does or anything, so I don't want to identify her, obviously, but just to watch how her business has transformed in like the year and a half we've been working together, and um, she's like really thinking about where she wants to go now, and she's like a told it new level than where she was in the past. Um, and at the same time, her kids are having a hard time, not with her, but in their own lives. And uh one of them has been getting into some degree of trouble and is a teenager, and she was saying to me like last week or the week before, I feel like I should probably take a break from business to tend to my family. And she has a co-parent who doesn't live in the same household. Um, the co-parent has a business where he travels all the time. And he's not saying that. Of course not. Yeah, shocking. And she was saying, like, I don't have as much drive as I used to have. And I'm I just do you have any thoughts about that? Like, what's going on? And I was like, Yeah, it sounds like the patriarchy talking to me. It's like, you know, this idea that she well, one thing, there is definitely that piece around she's not supposed to be celebrating what's happened in this incredible, like her income is better than it's ever been. She's a solid six figures and has for a while now, and not working as many hours as she had been in the past. Like it's really exactly where she wants it. But she's supposed to be quiet about that in some ways, and then this other stuff is supposed to take her attention. Like that's you know, and it's not that she's not paying attention to it, she's done a lot, she's put in place a lot of therapy and a lot of other things, and she's definitely, you know, focusing where she needs to focus on her kids. It's not like she's it's not an either or is what I'm trying to say. But part of what's been happening for her internally is this idea that, oh, but it should be either or I should be totally focused on my kids.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Yeah.

Linda 30:43

And I think it's it's part of this of like the piece around having to hold all of that, like hold the success, hold the way the business is going, hold that she's not marketing as much, and she has people coming in left and right, you know, all that stuff that we all wish for, you know? And that things aren't going as well for her kids as she would like. And one of them is really acting out. And how does she handle that? And I think it's just so what do I want to say, so patriarchal and so quote unquote normal as women to think, well, I gotta shut down the success part. I need to go focus over here. Yeah, solely. Solely. I need to surrender all of my life and my joy and yeah. I mean that's for for a time. She kept saying for a time, maybe, for a time, maybe. And I'm like, well, I don't know, let's talk about this. Like, do you really need to do that? Do you really truly want to do that? What would it look like? And what would you be doing differently if you did that?

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Yes.

Linda 31:43

Because she's already put in place so many things I think are important for her child. I'm not sure she can do anything else right now. Yeah. But it just makes me wonder how much of this is just it happens to women. For the most part, there are always exceptions, but you know what I mean. Yeah. I think that there is um the self-sacrificial piece, right? Like the parts that we're sacrificing aren't the hard parts. We sacrifice the the joy and the pride and the ease and the purpose and those kinds of things to help others to find theirs in their lives. Then we're given a gold star. And everyone says we're doing a great job. Yeah.

unknown 32:27

Yeah.

Joy As Fuel In Dark Times

Change What You Cannot Accept

Linda 32:27

And she's such a she, you know, I'm not saying that she wants this necessarily, but you can imagine people saying, Oh, she's such a great mom. She had a successful business and she closed it down to take care of her kids. Oh, yeah. That would be the that's the pinnacle, right? Like, oh, what a good person, what a good mother, what a good woman. Like doing what, you know? Where I don't think that you would ever hear that for a man. No, it would be the opposite. Like, what the heck's he thinking? He had that thriving business. I know. And he closed it down for what? Yep. Oh, that kid should learn to pick him up by boot his bootstraps and yeah. It's like a totally different, it's a totally different story. So I think you're, yeah, I think you're spot on. And I wanted to pick up something too, because of the times that we're living in. You know, like when you were saying that you and your partner have had this when you looked back at 2025, there was this like, smell, smell, good year for us, you know, like that almost like, can I say this? You know, like, and there's the the piece around, like, yeah, you don't want to tempt fate. But I also wonder, and I would feel for myself, is there's so much shit going, it's like a shit storm out in the greater world, and there's so much suffering, and there always has been, but it feels just very intense and present. And I think that's part of it too, is that when we get too stuck and solely focusing on that, then our joy and the things in our life that bring us nourishment and fulfillment do can feel kind of small rather than like, you know, we carry this like, oh, well, who am I to enjoy my life, or you know, like when all this other stuff is happening, like I should be suffering and be angry all the time and you know, all of this stuff, rather than, oh, but that's that's like the wellspring of life. Yeah, that is what allows us again. It's coming back to like that's the gift. We need to take the gift if we're gonna keep going. Because I think even with so many of the things that are happening in the world and happening politically, it's like you know, it reminds me of Esther Perel when she talks about, you know, um looking at people who were part of the Holocaust, like Holocaust victims. And the ones who held back, like held on to the joy, and then when they came back into life, like just lived it, like just even with the trauma and the terror and the horror, all of it, they still found the simple joy of coming back to life. They ended up like living so long, like so many of those people lived to be a hundred, right? Like, and then there was other people who never did, right? That that that got stuck solely, understandably, from you know, like, but but yeah, that there is this peace around that joy, that love, that um zest for life. Like we need that, like to to to continue on, to stand for the things that matter for us, like the things that we want to see, the future that we want to build. Like, there's no faster way to burn out than just fuel up on rage and despair. Trust me, I've tried, it's not good. It's true, it's really true. Yeah, I remember when Richard and I had our second date, which was the same week that um Trump was inaugurated. And uh, I know, and I was talking to a friend because I was like, I mean, I quickly realized, wow, there's really something to this guy, you know, he's very different than a lot of the other guys I've met in a good way. Um, and I was talking to a friend about it, and she said, Oh, she said, that's one of the great elixirs of life. And I'm so happy for you that you have that in this terrible time right now. And and I've hung on to that through in the years. And when I have moments where I'm feeling a little guilty to be so happy in the midst of all, especially being in the Twin Cities and all the stuff that's happened, you know, it's like um I, you know, it's that feeling of like, wow, I have the ultimate privilege right now. Like being with this wonderful person and having this lovely time together. And but I remember what she said, and it's true. It's like we're both working in the trenches in our own way in terms of the people that we try to help, and you know, um, so we take that into our work too. It's like I certainly have been able to sustain my business over this past crazy year in a way that I wouldn't have otherwise without the relationship with him. Yeah, there we but the the elixir. The I love that the way that they worded it, like you know, like the elixir of life. It's yes, it's it's that and how that can carry you through. And then it becomes also this gift that you can offer others rather than, you know, if everything becomes just doom and gloom. Uh it's hard, you know. It's like, and I think that for women too, that's why it's important that we find those things, that we prioritize them. Um, and we don't get so buried by all of our responsibilities and all of our obligations and all of our sense around, well, who am I to, you know, enjoy my life or you know, do this or that, rather than, well, who am I not to? Like, I'm not, it's not like oh, I'm contributing to the greater joy of the world by being miserable 100% of the time. You know what I mean? Like, no one's asking for that. Well, it does raise a question too about responsibility. Like, we tend to think responsibility is this serious thing of like your duties and the things that you have to do. But don't we also have a responsibility to tend to our own happiness and to tend to our own joy and sense of well-being and and to let that light shine a bit in the world, especially right now, when it's such a challenging place, such a challenging time. I don't know about you, actually, I do know about you, but I love seeing people who are lit up with life at this time right now. I mean, I always do, but especially do right now. Yes. I'm like, it's it's this morsel of oh my god, okay, yes. Like, keep we keep going, we keep shining, we keep doing the things. And I feel like that was kind of what I was alluding to, like in my intro of you, of I thank you for being one of those people in my life. It makes me emotional, but you know, it's kind of like um because there are so many voices and so much stuff that that pushes us in this other direction. That to have somebody that's calling us forth into the future that's wishing to be born through us is such a gift that we don't, you know, that we can carry through, that we can there's no way to escape the current moment. Like that's it, it just it is, it's a hard one. It's it's hard in a lot of ways. And at the same time, it's like, but this is this is our time, this is what we've got. This is this is it. Well, and I think it's part of how we tap into our power as women is you know, to not be the good girl and to recognize the places where life is going well and where we're happy and where we're content and fulfilled, and all those good things as we take on all the stuff that we can't accept and that sucks. Yes, yes. What was that quote you sent me? What was it? Oh, it was the photo Tony Morrison. I can't, it was it was from the refrigerator where I was pet sitting. I'll pull it up. I've got it on my phone. It was the twist on the serenity prayer, which I think has, you know, like sometimes I need that of the recognition of okay, these are the things that are within my responsibility and my circle of influence and control, and what isn't, and can I let that go? But this was the opposite of that. And I think it was Angela Davis. Angela Davis, that's what it was. Thank you. It said, I am no longer accepting the things I cannot change, I'm changing the things I cannot accept. I know, I loved it. When I saw it on the refrigerator, I had to send it to Linda because I was yes, indeed. Yes, yes, I love that so much. And I was actually when I saw that it made me sent me down this whole thought storm around like, yeah, that's lobbed at women all the time about well, just accept the things you can't change. You can't change the patriarchy. Yes. And then shockingly, it doesn't change, right? Because you know, and it's it and I think it's it kind of goes in line with what our topic is because again, there there is a certain wisdom to that, to okay, these are the things I cannot change. I'll I there are some things in life that we have to learn to accept, but then there are the things that we're like, no, I can't fucking accept this, and I'm gonna work to change it. Like I may not even see the results or the fruit of it in my lifetime, but I'm going to work to change it. Like I want to be part of moving this in a specific direction. Yeah. Susan B. Anthony never voted.

unknown 41:55

Yeah.

Linda 41:56

She never voted. But her grave is in Rochester. And when people vote, they go and put the I voted sticker on her gravestone. So there are different times hundreds of them on. They clean them off every once in a while, and then people put more of them on there. But I love it so much. I love that women, people, but probably a lot of women go and put their stickers on her gravestone, you know, to just to honor that we wouldn't have it without someone like her and and specifically her. And yeah, I think that it's we may not see the changes in our lifetime. But on the other hand, if we buy the story that we have to accept things as they are, then nobody will have it in their lifetime. No, there will be no stickers. But I think they're also related to talking about polarities. It's important to still be able to enjoy life. Yes, we have the patriarchy. Yes, it sucks. Yes, there are crappy things happening all over right now. And right now it's spring outside my window. You know, and there are all kinds of great things happening. And I, you know, I have wonderful friends like you, Linda. And like there's so much joy, and it's important to be able to recognize that one does not diminish the other. Unfortunately, that bad times still exist. But it's true of the opposite.

unknown 43:21

Yes.

Linda 43:22

It doesn't necessarily take away those good things if we don't allow it to. Yeah, we can we can make space for all of it. We can we can, as the quote goes by someone I don't know who it was, that we contain multitudes, that there's so much um, so much feeling, so much emotion, so much experience that we can hold at the same time. And that I think that, you know, like you were saying about maturity, like reframing what maturity, especially emotional maturity, looks like. It's like taking the heavy stuff seriously and also like the stoicism that I think tends to be pictured. It's like somebody who is immovable. You know, by anything. And it's like, that's not maturity. That's a coping mechanism. There's a very religious college here that and their billboards say unwavering. And we're always laughing and go by and we're like, yeah, that's because they're so strict. It's like they mean it. Like this is the doctrine, this is the policy, this is whatever. You know, we don't waver. You're this is it, you know, rigid, rigid, rigid. Yeah. It might as well just say rigid. It's like to me, that's not maturity.

unknown 44:30

No.

Linda 44:31

No, that's uh there's a certain lack of trust in that, I think. Yeah. And you know, I guess in closing, I also want to say, and I'm only realizing this in this moment, that there's a certain relief to me to recognize being able to hold these things at the same time. Because what it means is you don't have to lose the happiness when the bad things happen. It's like you can truly have both. And so that feeling we sometimes get when good things come of wanting to like really hang on to it, to like, you know, really, really like cling to it. Because you know, it's like it's not gonna last forever, kind of feeling. That's not great either. It doesn't feel good, it doesn't feel joyous, it's expansive, open. It's like I will contract around this thing so you can never leave. Right. And to me, being able to hold on to both means that I don't have to do that.

unknown 45:24

Yeah.

No Feeling Is Final

Linda 45:25

Oh, oh, oh, I wish I knew that Rilky, oh, there's a Rilky quote. Oh my goodness. I know we're coming up at the end of our time. Hold on. I have to see if I can find it though. Okay, see if you can find it though. Because yeah, I just it's a wonderful feeling to recognize that we do have some agency around this stuff too. And I hadn't thought about that either until just this moment. Oh, this was it. Let everything happen to you, beauty and terror. Just keep going. No feeling is final.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Oh.

Linda 45:56

And that's what kind of what it felt like when you described that is like staying open. Like it's almost like this tide. It's the it's a wind that moves through. It's that roomy, every, you know, you're the guest house, and there's all these feelings that move in and shake your shit up and then leave. And then there's the ones who are like, I'm gonna help you make this beautiful dinner, you know, like that we don't have to, we can trust ourselves enough that we won't be uprooted by any of them, that we can allow them to come and go, and that we can appreciate the hell out of the beautiful moments without needing to grip onto them so hard. Because we'll also know that they'll come back, like in a different form. Like happiness is not this, like you were saying, it's the when we look at things linearly or just as this either or, it's like, well, I better hold on to this one because then this is it. Yep, you know, it may never come back around. Exactly. And it's like, no, there'll be there'll be other joys that come in, then there'll be other sorrows that come in. It's like uh come back to your saying, like that's life. Yep, life is life thing. Sometimes it life's hard. Yes, sometimes it's a tidal wave of life. Yes. Oh, well, this was just such a joyous conversation, as always. And we'd love to hear from you, dear listeners. As we said, like one, what has your experience been of this? Like, I love the question that you brought up, Laura, around, you know, like what is uh is this experience more directed towards an experience by women than it is by men? Is it a way of keeping us small and just passive? Yeah, I'd love to know if people have thoughts or experiences around that. I think it I haven't really thought of it in that way before, so I would really love to explore that more with other people. So please do share with us. Alrighty then. Well, until the next time.