What if indecision is actually something else?

Welcome to Woman Uncaged Episode 13 of Season 5! 

Indecision gets treated like a flaw, but what if it’s actually something else? In this conversation, we pull on that thread and it opens up a surprisingly tender truth about decision making: every real choice includes a small death, a door closing, a version of you that won’t happen. When we don’t make space for grief, longing, and the unknown, we spin. We overthink. We call ourselves “bad at decisions” when we’re really trying to protect something that matters. 

We talk through how loss avoidance shows up in the biggest crossroads. We also name the modern pressure to optimize everything, and how chasing the “perfect” option can keep your mind split in two. Along the way, we unpack why the unlived life always looks perfect, how perfectionism feeds the fantasy of a spotless choice, and why “no regrets” can be a strange goal if you’re actually living bravely. 

Subscribe, share this with a friend who’s at a crossroads, and leave a review with the decision you’re wrestling with right now.

Resources:
Muse Guided on Substack

The book: The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control by Katherine Morgan Schafler

Transcript

Warm Welcome And Friend Shoutouts

Linda 0:02

Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 13 of season five of the Woman Uncaged Podcast. My name is Linda Katz, and I am here with one of my beloved besties, just dear human friend, co-conspirator in so many things, who takes a stand for women's liberation in such a powerful and potent way. The woman who needs no further introduction, but I will introduce her anyway because Laura Gates loves it. Thank you, my dear. Who if you are not, um, if you're not on her Substack, I just saw that she launched something new today that she has five spots open for. She is on, you can find her in Good With Money on Substack. And she is offering some walking and coaching sessions, if I'm not mistaken. I saw those coming through my email at a wonderful deal, where you will get to have and experience what I am so lucky and grateful to experience in my life as Laura is a dear friend of mine. Her deep, potent listening, her ability to hear. I have to close my eyes when I say it, like hear what is not being said, to listen between the lines. We often talk about reading between the lines, but Laura has an amazing capacity to listen between the lines, for what, for what isn't said, for a change in voice, for what might be wanting to emerge or from the depths of your being, and then gently coaxing that forward and being such a powerful stand for how we can grow and expand in our lives as women. And I don't know about you, dear listeners, but I feel like that is such a needed, potent, wonderful gift is to have another woman in our lives who can call that forth within us and who can celebrate our growth and encourage it. And I just I have so many wonderful things to say. I could keep going on and on, but I will not. So please just get on the good with money Substack people. And Laura, it's so wonderful to be here with you today, as always. Thank you, my dear friend. It's funny, like you say that, and I think, yeah, but you're the master of all those things. It's true. It's true. I feel like uh I have some skill, but oh shush your face. But I've I learned a lot from being your client too, though, because you're you are the master of that really focused, present, deep listening, which is one of the gifts that Linda brings to all of her relationships. And I'm so happy to be here. I didn't even say your name. My beloved bestie, Linda Katz. Um yeah, because you do, you bring that depth and your wisdom and your glorious sense of humor and all the things. And that's one of the things I just adore about you. That, you know, we can be laughing one minute and crying the next, and it's all normal.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

I just really love that.

Indecision Reframed As Loss Avoidance

Big Decisions And Hidden Grief

Choice Overload And The Perfect Life Myth

Linda 3:13

It's all on the table. You you're so good at picking up on things and pointing out stuff I'm missing all the time, which, you know, not just when I was your client, but you do it for me now, and I really appreciate it. Um, and in such a beautiful, gentle, wise way. Um, yeah. And you know, Linda's not coaching these days, so you can't really access her that way, but you can, of course, listen to her here, and you can definitely check out her fabulous book, Homecoming, and she has a sub stack that she's she writes occasionally. She doesn't have to write often because when she does, it's always a gem. It's called Wild Woman in the Burbs, and it's beautiful. So, you know, it's like you have to take Linda where you can get her because she's not that available. But she it's I become elusive like a forest creature, they say that's why I feel so lucky because I can box her every day, all day. And we get this time together too, and another time, which means things that we're working on outside of this, um, because her presence is just such a gift, such a gift. So thank you, Linda. Oh, thank you, Laura. Oh, so what are we talking about today on episode 13? Well, speaking of gifts from Linda, she sent me this amazing Substack article last week. Um that's the title is You Are Not Indecisive, you avoid loss. And she told me about it first and she sent it to me, and I read it, and the whole time I was reading it, I was like, oh my God, this is so true. There's so much here. And so we decided we wanted to talk about that today. I think in our culture, now we've talked before, like we're grief avoidant, we're loss avoidant. We really don't make space for those things. And that's one of the things I love about being in a relationship with you, Linda, is that you do make space for those things, and you've taught me to make space for those things. Um, so when I read stuff like this, and like it really stands out to me the difference between the way you live your life and the way this culture encourages most people to live theirs. And I mean, Linda always talks about how she loves longing. She's like such a weirdo, but um she like loves longing. And you know, longing in some ways is almost a form of grief. It's like wanting something that you can't have instead of losing something you've already had. It's like a different version of it. And so I think Linda's capacity and comfort with loss, grief, longing is superior to most humans that I know. So it's fitting that she would send me this particular article. Um, but it's worth talking about because I think so many times, so many women who come to me, and you can tell me if this is true for you, Linda, with women you've worked with, say, I'm really bad at making decisions. I can't make decisions, I'm really stuck, like I don't know what to do. Um and reading this article and thinking about how, oh, that's loss avoidance. Yeah, makes so much sense, but I've never seen it that way before. I'd love to hear more about what you see in this. Yeah. I mean, when I read that article, I was I read it to Eric, I sent it to you, I sent it to another friend, I was like, oh my God, this because I saw too so much of myself reflected in her words. And I do think that viewing indecision is also or calling it indecision is like a double double painful, doubly painful, because not only is it perhaps not accurately naming it, which I think that loss avoidance is a more accurate name for at least a good chunk of indecision, maybe not all of it. Um but it's also this way, at least for myself, that I can wield it um as a weapon or as a form of self-punishment or berating myself in some way, that it's like, oh, why am I just not capable of making this decision? And rather it's like, oh, I'm actually trying to avoid losing something that matters to me, or I'm afraid of naming that loss or being with that loss, afraid of being what's on the other side of it. And I think there's one point in the article where she talks about how much time and energy we spend on ahead of the decision, right? Like before the decision is made, and so much is stirred up and so much anxiety. And then we don't spend a lot of time on the exhale on the other side of it. And I feel like that was something that I was like, oh my gosh, that's so true. Like there's so much um, so much time that is spent kind of oh waning back and forth. And I think just having this lens through which to notice, like, oh, but every decision, right, is is a loss of something. It is a severance, like it is a cutting away of one option that will not be, and a life and a version of yourself that may not be, and or is no longer going to be moving forward, and that there is a certain loss associated with that, there's a certain grief associated with that. There is um a stepping into the unknown that comes with it that can be really uncomfortable. And I think that we we make it seem just about the action, because of course we do, because that's our culture. We're very much like, you know, it's the act of deciding. And I don't think we do as much around putting this context around it, around the feelings, the loss, the grief that comes with it. Yeah, I think that's true. I think if anyone's listening and they're thinking, well, I don't, what are you talking about? I think you can see it more clearly in really big decisions like getting married. When you choose to marry somebody, you're giving up the single life, you're giving up, and maybe single life wasn't so great, but there are still some things that you probably enjoyed about it, you know, like you're giving up the possibility that that there's somebody else out there, supposedly. We're supposed to do that. Uh, we don't all do that. But you know, it's it's things like that where it's like you're cutting those options off. You're saying, okay, no, now I focus over here. Or choosing a career, like not so much in college, because everybody changes that, but like grad school, usually. Usually, if you get a master's degree in something, you're choosing to continue to do that thing, and especially if you're trying trying to choose between two things, you know. Like I I was seriously considering getting a master's in sociology, my undergraduate degree is in sociology, but the calling to become a therapist was pretty strong. And I was trying to go back and forth. And I had a couple of friends who were in sociology who really, really wanted me to do that. And I had a professor who was a sociology professor, my undergrad who really she's like, I just would love to see you go into the field. And I still have moments sometimes where I thought, I wonder what that would have been like. You know? So it's things like that, or like having a child. When you have a child, you've cut off your childless years, like they're done. Yep. And that's huge. And I don't think that we honor with any of those things, we don't honor the fact that that oftentimes does come with grief, which I think is, you know, uh part of what makes motherhood difficult is that it's supposed to just be about the joy and the love and then the next chapter. And there's a lot of discomfort around any grief associated with letting go of the old one. And I mean, that definitely I feel like, you know, and she even talks about this in the article of those choices where we really have to commit, where there is no, there's no way out. And there was an interesting statistic that people tend to be happier with their choices when they don't think that they can make a different one. Like you, you just end up, you're like, oh, I have to, this is my choice. There is no backing out of it. And I think, you know, when I was reading it to Eric, we were also talking about how when we moved back to Dallas in 2020. And since then, there's been lots of noodling and turmoil around, like, oh, is this where we want to be? Is this, you know, because now we live in these modern times, which have the privilege oftentimes, and of having more freedom and the freedom of choice, which isn't a bad thing. But I do think that sometimes it can lead to this angst that can lead to this kind of never settling into the life that we have, never even choosing the life that we have, because part of us is always off living a life that isn't ours. There's this idea that we give there's the perfect life for us, right? Or there's the perfect place for us, or the perfect career, or the perfect partner that I think really trips people up. And I'm not saying don't choose wisely when you're choosing your life partner, absolutely choose wisely. Or any of those things, yeah. It's super important. Well, you know, moving, you can move anytime. That's true. You know, as somebody who moves a lot. Um, but you know, it's like some things like definitely choose carefully, but we tend to put a lot of pressure on ourselves to pick the perfect place. And so when we move somewhere and maybe it takes a while to adjust, or it's harder to make friends there for whatever reason or whatever, we tend to think, oh, I chose the wrong place. Yes. You know, like I made a mistake. And to think about like where, so where is the perfect place? Yep. As opposed to that, you know, there are times when you have to commit to a place and make it work, or complete commit to a situation and make it work. And like you said in the article, it's like there's a degree to which that can be easier because your mind isn't split in two directions. You're just dedicated to making this thing work instead of thinking I'd be better off over there. When I heard you say that, I was like, oh my God, that has like literally been my life for the last, I don't even know how many years in so many different ways. Your mind isn't split in two directions. I feel like everything in my life, my mind is split in two directions. Say more. You know, it's like there's so many areas I think that that that can be true, where I have tried in a lot of ways to straddle like a middle road. I think that for a long time my mind was split between having children, not having children. Um, I think that in terms of wanting to have something in the creative field, like wanting to devote more of my time and energy into writing, art, those kinds of things, versus having do it making the responsible choice. So I've tried, I I think in a lot of ways, I've what I've called like straddling this like middle path has been in some ways loss avoidant, in that it's it's been, I don't want to give up either one. And and noticing that that is that is also a choice that also comes with a certain level of grief, because what I do lose is the ability to um, I guess, move forward with a singularity of mind. And for myself, I also question like, oh, well, even if that was the case, would I still move forward with a singularity of mind as somebody, as we've talked about before on this podcast, you know, like the myth of the singular focus, it has eluded me for my whole life. So I think maybe thinking that there's a magical solution to that might be part of it. Um but yeah, there's just there's so many ways that I think that um, yeah, like coming at it from this place of I don't want to give up the something that feels steady and secure, but I also don't want to give up this part of like my soul flowering and moving towards that, you know, the things that make me come alive. Um and sometimes the the loss that is associated with that particular split is that I never feel like I'm in one place. I don't feel like I really flourish necessarily in either area because it's like I'm dabbling and scattered in all of these different areas, which in itself is a form of loss. Yeah. It's a challenge for sure. I mean right before Linda sent me this article, I was um making dinner one night and my partner came in the kitchen and I was saying to him, like, I it just had hit me that I feel it's such a relief to feel like totally committed in a relationship again. Because for the last, I don't know how many years of my marriage, at least five, maybe longer, the constant question in my head was, should I stay or should I go? You know, and then if I should go, how the heck do I do that? So it's like, and then there's a whole rabbit hole that comes with that. But you know, one foot, one, one foot in, one foot out is really hard. It's really painful. It's like you're not really there, and but you're not really in the future either. And the future looks big and unknown and scary, and like, you know, yeah, I still don't know what the future is, of course, but in terms of a relationship, it just I was just realizing how it felt so nice to just be solidly committed to something and not have that constant question in my head. Like that's exhausting. It is so exhausting. And when you're just explain describing that, I was thinking that sounds really tiring. Yes. Yes. And I think that was like last year, there was so many of these areas where um the constant question in my head was, what am I doing with my life? Which is also not the most helpful of questions because it's really large and it's just very unwieldy. But it's kind of the same idea. It's this like constant inner churn that is, yeah, it ends up being really tiring. And and sometimes I think that there is also um, you know, because we have this predilection, I guess I would say, for decision making in our culture. Yeah, I think of that iceberg metaphor where it's like if the if the decision and the change is like the tip of the iceberg, it's like all the stuff that's below the surface is all of that that happens before we make that decision, like before you made the decision of whether to stay or go. Um, I've made those decisions before we made the decision on whether to move and leave Austin or LA. I mean, there was years of this kind of questioning and things that happened before that. So I also think that there's a certain truth to it. Um and I don't want to use, fall into the kind of cultural paradigm that it's better to make a decision quickly. Yeah, I agree. You know, like I think we all want the change. We all want the like, we want the tip of the iceberg, and no one wants to go through the fucking bottom of it. Like that mess where it's just like it's confusing, there is inner turmoil. And and I think that that is part of the decision-making process. And yet there also comes a time, I think, where we know that, okay, the time is now and it's time to act and it's time to move forward. Um, and the the discernment of those two pieces of how not to rush or push or force, but also how to not like fail to allow the change that is already happening is just one of the really hard parts about being human. Oh, yeah. And this is why it was invaluable to me that you were my coach during that time, right before I made the decision. Because you kept pointing out to me that this decision could not be rushed. Um, I do think that like I'm with you. I don't think certain decisions should be rushed at all. I do think it's valuable to recognize that part of what's in the mix is this the loss that comes with making the decision. I'm not saying it should slow us down anymore, and I'm not saying it should speed us up anymore. I just think it's something we don't recognize and we don't talk about. So I think that's really important. And also to discern is it the kind of decision where it requires a lot of time and thought and energy because sometimes we we do this for simple decisions too, like the kind of decision like should I stay or should I go in a marriage? Should I leave the town that I love and move somewhere else? We put the same kind of emphasis on tiny decisions, like should I go out with my friends tonight? Like I see my clients sometimes churning in these decisions that really have don't have big consequences, but our minds can make it feel that way sometimes. Yeah. So what's going on over there, Linda? I could see your face. That's so interesting. I just wonder, like, what do you think? What do you feel like is at the root of that? What do you think? Like, why do our minds have a tendency to turn over even like the smaller decisions that really have no impact in our greater lives either way? What is that? I think there are a whole bunch of things. Sometimes I think it's just basic good old anxiety. Um, you know, just that. But I think it's also this tendency we have in our culture to maximize and optimize so that it's like, you know, if you're thinking, well, should I go out with my friends tonight? I don't know if I'm gonna like what we're doing. I don't know if I'm gonna enjoy it. I don't, you know, what if I'm missing out on something important at home? What if I could get this done or that done? Things that you wouldn't normally do. You know, usually suddenly we like cleaning the fridge looks appealing, you know, things like things like that where we just get all up into this thing where it's, you know, what if I get into a bad car accident on the way, you know, and if I'd stayed at home, that wouldn't have happened. What if I miss a phone call because I went out? Not you know, we carry cell phones now, so maybe that doesn't happen anymore. But you know, it's just we can get all caught up in this what if, what if, what if, what if, what if? Yeah. I'm laughing because I'm like, oh my God, I'm not the only one who has these things. I'm like, thank goodness. No, I think I think we probably all do to some of us to one degree or another. And you know, even when it comes up from myself, I'll just I just think laugh at myself and be like, I'm just going out for the evening, you know, like shut up.

unknown 21:46

Yeah, yeah.

Linda 21:47

It's gonna be okay. Whatever else it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Yeah.

Linda 21:51

Yeah. Well, when I was in coach training, one of the things that they taught us that I grappled with for quite a while is that we have a tendency, tendency to label. Lots of things, mistakes, and we're so worried about making a mistake. But a mistake is really only something you can see in the rearview mirror. Right? It's like, and you never know which thing is gonna fall in that category. And all it is is a decision that didn't work out the way we wanted it to. Yeah. I mean, it's not that big of a deal, usually. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I well, actually, that reminded me of something that you had said that she had written about too, where it was this um, when you were talking about what we tend to view as a mistake, like, oh, I moved here, it didn't turn out exactly the way I thought it would. It's taking longer to make friends. It's I made this mistake. And how the unlived life always gets to be perfect. Right. And it reminds me of I can't remember the name of the author who wrote the book on perfectionism. Oh, yeah. Um, Kathleen Morgan Shaffler. Shaffler, I think that's it. Yep. And I feel like this is related to she has two forms of perfectionism that feel very related to this like loss avoidance. One is the kind of perfectionism where it's really hard to get started. Because again, to bring something down, whatever it is from the imaginal realm and into the lived human experience, there's it's always going to be messier. There's all there's when it gets to live in your head as this like perfect life, this perfect choice that exists out there, that there are no issues, there are no limits. Yeah, there are no obstacles encountered, there's not that friction. And when we bring it down into the lived experience, of course, there's going to be. And the same thing, I think the fear of like finishing something can have that fear of loss too. Because then it's, you know, it and so it's tied up in so many different things. But I think what you said there about how we view mistakes, I love, I love that. Like the we only recognize them in the rear view mirror because they didn't turn out the way we thought they would. And the choice that we didn't make will never get to have that opportunity to disappoint us because it was never made, it never came into existence. It always gets to remain out there as this like other option that would have been better. But we never know. We don't actually know that. We're just projecting that out there. Yes, it's so true. Early in my, I don't think we were, we weren't engaged yet. Early in my relationship with the man who became my husband, something happened and I had to make a choice and I chose to stay in the relationship. And so many times in the ending years of that of the marriage, I would think about that point and think, what if I'd made the other choice? But you're right, it's like it's you know, when you're in the mires of difficulty that that looks so pristine and perfect, you know, but it's because I didn't live it. If I had, I might have been single for the rest of my life and not have my beautiful children and might have been like, what would have happened if I would have stayed?

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Yeah, of course, yes.

unknown 24:56

Yes.

Imagination That Re-Enchants Real Life

Regret As Proof You Lived

Linda 24:57

But it does take on that glow of perfection because it's it's unlived and untarnished. And I wonder too, like this is something that I have pondered in my life. Um, it was something that came up when we were, you know, kind of on the fence, like about having children. It wasn't happening. And uh I felt like there was a parallel life that was like I was living that was going along with my actual life. Like, here's this other option. And what would life look like if, and how do I make choices from a life that I don't actually have? Um, and at a certain point, that was part of realizing like I need to give this up. But as somebody who also loves longing, as you said at the beginning, there is uh this question that I have too of when does the imaginative other life, it's not always negative, it doesn't always take away from what we have now. Um, how can that also be nourishing? And how do we know the difference? I think that's something that I've asked in my own life, where it's like, because I do love longing and having like, you know, that's there's like the imagination. I almost imagine, you know, people who write novels. It's like you get to step into a life that is completely not your own and immerse yourself in it and live it for a time. And the joy of that, that I'm like, of course we need people who do that because that's how we get great stories. Like, not all stories come from lived experience, they come from the realm of imagination. And so I think that there's also that with me, where is this question of when does it become uh a drain? When does it become something that prevents me from living the life that I do have versus when is it something that actually enriches the life that I do have with this other imaginal realm? Yeah, I think that's a great question. I mean, my gut reaction is that it becomes a drain when it's a total preoccupation and it takes you out of your own life. You know, like if if you're spending more time in this imaginal realm and not so much on your own life, then I think it's probably getting in the way. Um, but if it's something that's just sort of fun to think about or somehow serves you in some way, I don't I don't see how it could be a problem. I I think the interesting piece around that though, that also could be getting in the way for somebody, you know, not saying you specifically, but and she writes beautifully about in this subsec piece, is that we tend not want not to want to cross bridges and have the we want the bridge to still be available, basically. We always want a way to go back. That's that's part of how we uh tend to not totally make decisions, right? So if it falls in that realm, if you're imagining this life as if it could still be there, then I could see how that could also cut you off from fully inhabiting the life that you have. Yeah. Well, it's like I imagine, you know, and I think it's part of part of the creative process for me. And, you know, it as an example, I would I made a lit playlist of like French songs with like old school Edith Piaf. And when I would paint when I started doing watercolors a couple of years ago and kind of coming back to my art practice after many, many years away, there was this part that I was imagining like what it would have been like to live in Paris at this time, and you know, like going and frequenting cafes and you know, eating my croissants and having my glass of wine and people watching and you know, all of those things. And then I would pour that feeling into the art. That sounds delightful, you know, exactly. And so I think it's those pieces where we can how do we use that imagination to re-enchant our lives? Because I'm sitting here in Plano, Texas in my dining room. You know what I mean? Like there's not a lot of cafe culture, there's not a lot of people watching right where I live. So not a beret to be seen. Not a beret to be seen except for in my own uh closet. Um so I think it's it's it's that. And I think it kind of also um like maybe there's a distinction between imagination and fantasy. And when we start like living in that world of fantasy land, that it doesn't, like you said, it's almost like there's not a bridge. Oh there's not a bridge. We were talking about bridges, you know, to like between choices, but it's also like we need a bridge from the imaginal realm back to our lives so that it feeds back into it. And I think that the spaces where there isn't a bridge, where we just like hop over into this fantasy realm, but there's no way to integrate any of the magic that exists there, you know. And maybe it's like, oh, I'm gonna put on a, you know, a pair of red shoes or lipstick or, you know, sachet my hips a little bit more when I walk. Like there's all of these ways that we can bring that into our lives wherever we are when we have that bridge back. But when we don't have a bridge, I wonder if that's part of it too, is that like, here's my life where I just plod through everything and like, you know, take care of all my obligations. And then there's this fantasy land where I'm like, I'm this Parisian artist in 1920, you know. No, that makes sense to me because it feels like it might instead of one infusing the other, so instead of the imaginative, you know, part infusing your real life, it feels like it maybe it would be stealing from your real life. Yes. Yes. It's like, where's the energy going? Is it an energy that's like draining me? Am I because this is the life that I have, this is the life we all have in these human bodies, where we live right now, with what we're doing now. And is it like, is the energy just going out, or is it being re-infused through this process, like back into my body, that then I can take into all the aspects of the life that I do have? Right. Right. Because otherwise it's kind of depressing, right? It's to spend time in that like imaginative world that seems perfect and delightful and lovely, and then to come back and be like, oh, here I am, you know, as opposed to saying, well, what what can I take from that and bring into this realm? And I think that can be part of it too when we recognize, you know, like with the decision around like loss avoidance, that it's like, you know, for example, if you are a young mother, you know, and like the loss is the loss of your single life, is like, oh, there are these moments that I'm I would like to have one day a week where I get to go to the coffee shop and just like come back into myself or whatever it is, like what are these things that I can still live in some way? Um, even if I've made this other choice. It's like maybe it doesn't have to be so binary. Yeah, true. And it's also okay to have moments of regret. I think we're also really bad at that, you know. It's like like you with Ursa, it's like, you know, you take on a puppy and you have this dog. It's like, and you have this vision for how delightful and lovely and fun and it's gonna be, right? And like you have your moments where, you know, you'll box me and be like, oh my God, what what are we doing here? What are we done with our lives again? Not that you don't love her, not that you're not fully committed to her, not that you're not taking an excellent, amazing care of her. There are moments, right, where you're like, oh my God, I had no idea it was gonna be like this. Yep. It doesn't make it wrong. Yep. And it doesn't mean that I would even make a different choice. Right. Right? Like going back, it's like, oh, I wouldn't make a different choice. It's just, but of course, there are those moments of, yeah, I think we have that is another, I would say, emotion or experience that we really try to avoid. Yes. It's like we want to live our life, like live with no regrets. And I'm like, living with no regrets just means you didn't examine your life. You never felt at any rate. And or you never made a choice that was challenging, or you know, it's like if if you it's kind of like if you get through college with all straight A's, you probably didn't take a really tough course. Like either that or you're super genius. But you know, it's like when I kids, I would see kids in my office, like it you had a lot of seniors, like senior year high school kids, and I would always encourage them to take not to go for straight A's in college, like do your best, but take challenging classes. Like, you know, you're there to really pressure yourself in that sense of like educationally, like to learn, to challenge yourself to take on new things. And if you're gonna go for the 4-0, I watched people do it when I was in college, they would take easy classes.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Yep.

Linda 34:00

So they could have that 4-0. But for yeah, I don't think that's what college is about. But I think that's I think life is that way too. Yeah, exactly. I was like, oh my gosh, it feels like I mean, that's so much of schooling now in general, I think is it's always it's it's never for itself, it's never for the the growth and the development of potential and blossoming blossoming into a full human being. It's always about like what are you gonna do with it afterwards? So now it's like, oh, I'm going to school and I'm taking the AP classes, not because I want to challenge myself or because I really love this subject matter. It's because, oh, I I want to get into a good college. And then in college, I'm not gonna take the classes that are necessarily the hardest because I want to come out with a perfectly untarnished 4.0 GPA so that I can then take that into my career that I may not even want. Because again, then we never ask ourselves, well, what am I even why? Like, what do I want to be doing with this rather than how do I get what's the fastest way to get the gold star? Yes. Yes, which the older you get, the less meaningful that gold star is. Yes. You know, it's the more richness in life becomes important as opposed to how it looks. And that's what the gold star is all about is how it looks as opposed to how it's experienced. I think we do a disservice, especially to young people with this kind of like it's a it's pressure in the wrong area. Yeah. Yeah. It's the pressure to perform rather than the pressure to grow. Yeah, that's a little healthy pressure. Yeah, the pressure should be the internal pressure to learn. Like what lights me up? What's exciting? You know, it's like, yeah, it's well say I remember still taking in college, I was a fine art major. I studied art and I I took an astronomy class. I think I've I know I've shared this with Laura, and a friend of mine was like, Oh, it's so hard. Like, I took it, you should take it past fail because you get one class to take past fail. And I loved that class. I was just like, oh my, like learning about Einstein's theory of relativity. Like there was like a hundred-person, you know, lecture hall. And I remember the teacher pointing me out, like specifically, because he's like, you look really confused. And I was like, I'm really trying to understand, like this is just opening my mind. And it really opened my mind to a love of astronomy, physics, you know, watching the moon moon mission with Artemis, like all of those, like there is a love and a wonder and an awe that I think comes about from the fact that I was like, it wasn't easy to understand, but that's what made it so exciting. Yes. Like, yes, this is there's a there is that like pressure to learn and grow. And like, how is this possible? And how can a human mind ever think about this? Like, yes. Like the class I had that that came closest to that experience was called Life on Earth, and it was not in college, it was at the Museum of the Earth in Ithaca, and they had this class for adults that that we heard about in our homeschooling group. And some of the kids were like, I want to take that class. So we reached out to them and asked them if they would do it. And they're like, Well, it's really, it's really geared for adults. So the only way we'll do it is if a parent attends with the child. So my daughter and I took it together, and I think she was like nine or 10. Um, and I there was so much in that class I could barely wrap my head around. It was so fun, though, to do it with the kids and to like see what questions they asked. And then the adults would ask questions. And one of the things I loved about it is there was no posturing in the class. It was everybody was on the same field. We none of us understood any of it. So we were all trying to get it. And then we had to do a presentation at the end, parent and child. And it was so fun to do that. It was just, I have such fond memories of that class. And not because it was easy, it was not. Thank God it wasn't graded, but because at least I didn't have to worry about that part of it. But it was just so fun to be immersed in a completely different world, a completely different way of thinking, you know, with these experts who really knew what they were talking about and trying to figure out ways to impart it to us, both adults and children. Yeah, it was just so cool. Amazing. I love those experiences. And I think it's like even the grading piece, like this is something I've never thought about before. But it's like if we treat grades too as like, oh, this is symbolic of like my understanding of this subject matter, rather than as like a getting of the again, the kind of the accolade or like this. It's like, oh, this means that I'm I'm getting it. Like, and if I'm not, then it's again, it's this space of like, oh, there's more here for me to understand, there's more for me to dig into. It's just so unlike what we what we do. Well, and I can honestly say as a person who tests well that my grades never were a reflection of my actual understanding. So yeah, I was like, I wanted to do calculus. I have no idea. I could not even tell you what calculus is anymore. Like, how did I do that? I know. I know, but when I went to grad school, I purposely picked a program that did not have grades. It was all pass fail. Because I just did not, I'd been, you know, I'd always been the straight A student and I did not want to get caught up in that. So why? So why is it such a young age? See, this is what I'm talking about. Although it's sometimes when that was really tough, I thought, oh, I didn't realize like how hard this is because it's either pass or fail. There's no middle ground. So like, did I make a bad choice here?

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Yes.

Linda 39:37

Bad moments.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

I have I regretted this. Definitely in moments I did.

The Question That Cuts Through Noise

Linda 39:43

But then I never failed anything. See, in the rearview mirror, it was a good choice. Yep. Yep. So funny. Oh my gosh. Well, I know we're coming up towards the end of our time. It's been one of those wonderful meandering conversations. Um is there anything else you'd like to say? Like, let's say to kind of circle it back. If a woman, like you say, a lot of the like clients come to you and she's like, oh my gosh, I'm really having a hard time making this decision. Like, I just don't know which way to go, whether it's a big choice or a small choice, but maybe more importantly, the big ones. What would you offer? Like, what what do you say to her? I have a favorite question. Oh, even better. Tell me more. If nobody else's opinion mattered, which direction would you go right now? So good. So good. Because so much of the time the struggle is because of other people's imagined reactions or sometimes known reactions, or how we, you know, what we what we're worried about disappointing other people or letting them down or or facing some kind of retribution.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

Yeah.

Linda 41:01

I mean, that was absolutely true for me when I was trying to decide about my marriage. I thought my parents were gonna be really upset and it really pissed me off that I cared. Um, because of that, my God, I'm in my 50s. I shouldn't care what my parents think. But it, you know, it and as it turned out, they were completely 100% supportive. They really surprised me, but um but yeah, it's so easy to get caught up in what will other people think. And I also think too that sometimes uh that projection helps us not to spend time really considering how we feel about it. So I love to ask that question and try to bring it back to in the void, if there was nobody else who mattered, if nobody else was impacted, what would you be doing right now? What would you be deciding? Which direction would you be going? I love that. And I think that's such an important it's such an important question, and I think it is such a an important yet oftentimes unnamed form of loss that we try to avoid is controlling our image in the minds of other people.

unknown 42:11

Yep.

Feeling Fear In The Body

Linda 42:12

Of how other people see us, that they see us as this responsible or this person or this person, and I don't want to disappoint them. And there is a loss that is associated with that for us too. Around can I be okay with no longer being that straight A student, gold star, always to everyone else what they need from me? Yeah, and just the only one of my siblings hadn't been divorced. And I was proud of that, you know? It's like I've been married 30 years, I was proud of that. So I mean, is it worth staying in a relationship that no longer gives you life? No, but it was there, but it's there. It's hard when you're in it, you know? It's really hard, especially because you don't know what's on the other side. Yeah, but how about you, Linda? I know we only have a few minutes left, but what would you say to someone who comes to you and they're I mean, I know what you said to me, but what would you what would you say? How do you approach it? Oh, it's a great question. I'm like, I've I feel like my coaching skills are rusty these days. Um, I think the way that I would probably approach it is giving somebody space and time to just feel how they feel in the indecision, as they ponder the yes, the no, the stay, the go, um, to come down into the body. Because it's so I know this from my own life. I was just thinking about it earlier today. That I'll make a choice that feels really expansive and it really comes from this like, uh, yes. And then it oftentimes has become intertwined with that anxiety, which can feel like a big fat no in the body. And so recognizing and being with that and not making the fear wrong, not making the anxiety wrong, but also not necessarily letting it be the part of me that dictates my choices.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

Yeah.

Take The Smallest Next Step

Links, Laughs, And Goodbye

Linda 44:07

And so just having that space to to be and to feel, I think is probably would probably be my first invitation, which might have been what it was kind of like, you know, when you were pondering whether to stay or go is to, is to be with with that. Like, well, let's sit with this. Like let's be in it. Like let's be with the discomfort of not having made a decision. Let's be with the discomfort of being like, I'm definitely going to leave. I'm definitely going to stay. Like that's it, that's from my own experience, you know, with work situations or whatever. It's like, oh, this, this kind of as we circle around a decision, that in itself can be really uncomfortable. And just having the space to explore it without making it wrong or without that pressure um I think can be really important. So yeah I love that. I'll tell a really quick story and then we can end. But I had um a client like very brief she only I think she booked one or two sessions with me because she was really struggling around making a decision about going on a trip. She had one child who was young and her husband really wanted to take this trip and she was having some anxiety around it and she couldn't she was her she could what her dis what she wanted help with was she couldn't tell if that was wisdom or if it was true anxiety. So it was very much what you're talking about. And as we talked about it part of what she was getting getting caught up in her head was all the logistics that would have to take place to go on this big European trip. And so what I said to her was figure out like the smallest step you can take right now and like kind of line them up. Take just take a step see how it feels take another step see how it see how it feels and if things are going really smoothly all the way along that'll give you information. If they're not going smoothly you'll have other information that we can talk about that. You know like just like it was like get out of your head and into the game you know is basically what I was saying. It's like start moving on this and then you'll have you'll have more because right now it's all just like what if what if what if what if right? So anyway she started working on that trip and I'll never forget because she texted me and said it's going pretty damn smoothly just like okay it was in my head. Yeah and she ended up going and they had an amazing time. It wasn't perfect. Some things happened on the trip but they weren't like major thing you know it's like it was funny. There was a very funny story afterward that she told me about the things that didn't go well you know and she was so caught up in major things like what if this happens and we get stuck in Europe or what if this happens you know and this was years ago so it's not our current climate but it's just it's a lot of what you just said though of like it's so easy to have a big yes and then all that anxiety bubbles up and makes us think oh but what if what if what if what if what if yes it's like I think it's Glenn and Doyle who talks it maybe coined that like scared sided or something like that phrase like I'm scared and I'm excited at the same time. And sometimes those things can get so intertwined in our being that it can be hard to differentiate the two. But I love what your your advice was to her. And it's also I love what you said about get out of your head and into the game. It reminds me of the way that you coach women around money because it's like let's let's have you start making some money and then we'll see what comes up like let's get you in the game and then let's go from there rather than let's just noodle over and over again. Let's spend a year on the mindset. Yes, yes. I just I love that it feels related. It's like whatever it is in your life like get out of your head and let's start doing some stuff and see what happens and just treating it as information I think is so valuable too because it takes away that again that pressure or that you know it just becomes about like oh it's an experiment let's see let's see what this information is let's see what happens when you do this next step. Because part of it is we think we know. Yeah we get caught up in our heads and we think we know and humans are so bad at predicting things. That's what I've learned in all my years on the planet. They're very bad at predicting but we think we're not yes we try our hardest damn it we do I got so excited I tore out my earbuds a lot of joy I know as always and we will send uh we'll include in the show notes the link to the article by uh it's on Muse Guided is the name of the Sestack by Tamara Tamara or tomorrow we don't know which we don't know that's why we never say her name we don't want to mispronounce it. Yes and I'll also include the link to the perfectionism book that we talked about too. Yeah another great read. Oh great read.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

Until next time