What if exhaustion is a design problem?

Welcome to Woman Uncaged! This is Episode 11 of Season 5. 

Your back tightens, your jaw clenches, your brain won’t stop spinning and you reach for the fastest fix. We get it. Today, we're taking a hard look at where our energy really comes from and why so many “self-care” routines are actually more like self-recovery from a life that’s designed to drain us.

We start with a deceptively simple question sparked by regular massages: how would we need to live so we don’t need so much recovery just to function? From there we unpack the difference between sustainable self-care and the commercial solutions we’re trained to buy, including the subtle way hustle culture and rigid schedules teach women to feel guilty for rest. We also talk about digital overload and share one of our favorite signals that contraction is taking over.

If you want more energy without more hacks, press play. Then subscribe, share this with a friend who’s running on empty, and leave a review so more women can find these conversations. What’s one change that would help you stop buying back your own time?

Resources:
Book: Finding the Mother Tree: Discovering the Wisdom of the Forest by Suzanne Simard

Transcript

Welcome And Choosing Expansion

Linda 0:03

Hello everyone and welcome to Woman Uncaged. We are on season five, episode eleven. I am I am Laura Gates Lufton and I am here with my beloved bestie and wild co-conspirator, Linda Katz.

SPEAKER_05 0:20

I love that title.

Linda 0:22

It's a new one for today. I don't want to take it. As you all know, I adore Linda and I'm so grateful for her presence in my life and all the ways in which I watch her just grow and question and challenge things. And it's so inspiring to me to watch you, Linda, like take on life in the way that you do. And it's part of the joy of being in your circle is getting to have a front row seat to all of that and just the ways that you like you never settle. Like we it's so funny because we talked about her word of the year possibly being enough this year, and she didn't choose that, which I think was a really good choice. Um, in part because Linda's always experimenting, she's always trying new things. Like she was telling me about some of her artwork earlier. She's branching off in a new direction, even though she has this work way of working that's sort of proven and true, she's curious, so she's trying something else. And so one of the things I really adore about you is that you're not afraid to be curious and move into new realms. And it always feels like there's nothing off limits because as the person watching you, you know that you're always willing to stretch and grow and move into new places and new realms. And it's so inspiring to me. I just love being a part of that. I love that you share it with me. So such a joy to be here with you, Linda. Oh, thank you, Laura. And it's such a joy to be here with you as well. And I feel like Wild Co-Conspirator. I'm like, I would love that to just be my new title in life in all different ways. I'm wild co-conspirator. And I am here with my beloved and dear friend and wonderful human, Ms. Laura Gates leapt in. And I would say so many of the things that you said about me are with the things that I can see in you as well. Like you have this way of choosing expansion in a world where women are often taught to choose contraction or constriction as a way to stay safe. Laura does an amazing job of modeling the opposite of that. You're like, oh my God, you do. You choose expansion and life and also new experiences and growth in a way that I find really inspiring. And I'm certain that your clients do as well, and your friends, and all of the people who are lucky enough to be in your orbit, because it is such a an antidote to how patriarchy tries to pin women down and uh make us smaller. Like it's just a joy to watch you step into your power in greater ways and um yeah, live your life unapologetically, which is why I think Laura is such an amazing coach and mentor and friend and all of the things. But, you know, for the people that you work with as well, you can hold that energy for them because that's the energy that you hold in your own life. Like you can invite them into greater expansion and see the possibilities for them because you embody that for yourself and what a true gift that is, and what a joy it is to um be here and to be able to bask in that. And you make me question the places where I contract and see the world in a smaller way. So I know so it's a pleasure to be here with you today.

SPEAKER_03 4:01

Well, thank you very much.

Linda 4:03

I'm taking those words to heart. I'm gonna listen to that again.

The Massage Question Behind The Pain

SPEAKER_03 4:07

So thank you very much. So, my dear Linda, what are we gonna say? I don't remember. I was like, that's the end of our podcast again. No. Um what are we talking about today?

Linda 4:19

So we are talking about where and how to source our energy in sustainable and life-enhancing ways. And in part, the subject of the podcast of this week's episode was inspired by a couple of different things. And I'll start with the first one, which Laura reminded me of before we jumped on, which was I, you know, I've been going and trying to get a massage every six to eight weeks, uh, which, you know, feels like a luxury. And for the last year, it's like it's been really needed because I've been developing so many trigger points and knots in my back that I've just without it, I'm like, ugh, can't move. Um and I recognize that in some ways the massage, though it's wonderful and needed and relaxing, it's a band-aid, I think, for a larger thing. And the larger question that I'm asking is, well, how do I need to live my life so I don't need so many massages? Like I could still choose to have a massage, but it wouldn't be this like, I need to go get a massage. Like this is, I can feel the tension in my back. Um, and I think that's a really interesting question to ask that begins to pull forth this well, yeah. What would that even look like? Like, what would that feel like? What would need to be true? And where would I and how would I be sourcing my energy in order for that to be the case? So let's start there. What comes up for you upon that little noodling? I just want to hear you decide what it is.

SPEAKER_05 6:02

I wish. Good luck to me. I'll come back when I'm 87.

SPEAKER_04 6:06

I'll be like, I finally figured it out.

Self-Care Or Something Being Sold

Linda 6:10

No, I just really love the question. You mentioned it to me on Tuesday, and I I've been thinking about it ever since. Like it's such a good question. And I think a lot of us don't stop to think in that direction. We're just kind of like, oh, well, this is what's working for me, so I'm gonna keep doing it, instead of thinking about, well, wait a minute, what if I didn't have to? Um, which so you know that's part of why I love the question. And I also love the question, how do we source our energy, especially in times that are so depleting? I think we live in a particularly depleting time, um, and there because there's so many things on so many fronts that deplete our energy and that are constricting us and trying to anyway. And I so I think it's also a really good question of how do we live healthy whole lives and source our energy in a way that is sustaining and participates in our growth and our health as opposed to the band-aids. Yeah. So that's where my thinking goes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And immediately I I mean, you think there's all the things that we talk about, but one of the things that comes up, and I know we've we've discussed this before, is that a lot of what we refer to as self-care isn't really self-care. So that's also part of the problem. What do you think it is? What do you think self- what do we call self-care? What do you think it actually is? Well, a lot of them are commercial solutions. You know, having the dove chocolate in the middle of the day, that moment for you, you know. It's like, what does that do for anybody? It's like, sure, it might be a nice moment, but does that actually make you feel like, oh, okay, I'm resourced, I can go out and do the thing for the next few hours? I don't think so. So I feel like a lot of it is um solutions that are sold to us.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Yeah.

Linda 8:06

So like we end up and we end up thinking in that direction sort of automatically. When something isn't going well, we start thinking about what I can purchase to solve this problem, whether it's a service from a human or an actual product. Yeah, we tend to think in that direction. And I'm not saying that's all bad. Certainly there are some things that are worth purchasing. Obviously, I sell coaching, you know, and I do help people solve problems. So I'm not against that. But I think the fact that we tend to look in that direction and don't necessarily widen our lens beyond that, that it can get a little bit tricky. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. There are two different paths that I've like that triggered for me hearing you say that. And the first is also like when I think of massage, I think of it somewhat as self-care, at least how I'm getting it. I'm thinking of it more as like self-recovery. You know, it's like it's not even this like coming from like, oh, self-care to me sounds like a nice added bonus. Whereas self-recover is like, I need this thing, like immediately, because whatever the other aspects in my life are or the way that I'm choosing to engage with them are so depleting that I need to have that moment to like recover. Um, and I think there's something different, there's like a different energy with those two things. I think you're right. That I find to be interesting. And now I wish I remembered what the second thing was, but it completely went out of my mind because I didn't write it down. Well, I'll tell you what comes up for you when you talk about self-care versus self-recovery. I think recovery definitely sounds more necessary, right? Like, and not that it should, because self-care is also necessary. If you don't take care of yourself, then you know there's nothing there to give, right? But there's something about the recovery that's like, oh no, I have to do this in order to get to a place where I can function. It would be kind of nice if we thought of true self-care that way.

unknown 10:07

Yeah.

Linda 10:08

I don't think we do. And certainly I don't because immediately that's what came up for me.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

Yeah. Yeah.

Linda 10:14

And I'd love to hear what you see true self-care as, because I know I think you're really good at helping clients with this. You certainly helped me a lot when I was your client.

unknown 10:24

Yeah.

Linda 10:25

So I'd love to hear that. I mean, there's a few things that come to mind. One, I think that the first is our fast-paced life. I think that the way that we live now is we're not living at the pace of the body, we're not living at the pace of the heart, we're not living at the pace of the soul. We're kind of living at the the pace of the mind untethered from all of these other things. And then we're rushing to catch up with ourselves. And I think I shared this on the podcast, and I have no idea where I heard it anymore. Um, but the man who was in, he was somewhere in Africa with these warriors, and they were, I think they were trying to get to somewhere. I can't remember if they were chasing game or they were just trying to get him to um maybe somewhere that he was going, an airport. And they were rushing, rushing, rushing. And after three days, they just sat down. And he was like trying to get them, like, come on, we got to go, like, we gotta, we've got time. And there were the reason that they said they couldn't go, they're like, Oh, we need to give ourselves time to show our spirit can catch up with us. And I think there's such um, such wisdom in that that we very rarely give ourselves the time for our bodies to catch up with us, the time for our hearts and our spirits and all of all of us to to be there, to come back into a sense of wholeness of presence. So I think it's the slowing down, letting go of rigid schedules, practicing listening to notice like, what do I actually want to do? What do I need in this moment? And giving ourselves the permission to do those things. That feels really just important. And again, I think the fact that so many of these things kind of get put in this, like, well, that would be nice kind of box, shows how far our society has, you know, strayed away from what really I think are just natural human rights, human ways of living and being in the world. I do not think that it's normal for people, you know. I step outside of my house and we have this like our lush little garden and it's kind of quiet. And we live in a suburb like that used to be a pretty sleepy suburb. Uh, and now I step out of the house and I mean people are just you get in the car and it is they are on your ass. There is honking, everybody is going, you know, twice the speed limit. There's just this sense, this constant stress and rush. And I think it's real self-care is so much harder than what we're sold because I think it becomes an entire reconfiguration of our lives, which is really difficult given the very real constraints that our society puts upon us. Yes. So that's a very long answer. I love that answer. I and I 100% agree with you. I mean, even when we got on here, I was telling you almost apologetically that for someone who lives without apology, that I'd pretty much taken the day off today. You're so lazy. I've been so lazy. I was like, I'm I've spent my I was reading about women, money, and power though.

SPEAKER_05 13:44

So lazy. Okay.

Linda 13:46

Yeah. But yeah, it's because uh last weekend I had a three-day workshop, six hours each day on Zoom, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. And this weekend I have another one, totally different group of people. Um, it was six hours on Saturday and six hours on Sunday. And so part of me is like, I just have to have this day where I'm getting on Zoom with Linda, but nobody else, and I'm not responding to any other messages or anything. I'm just like not working essentially. Um, and I I know I shared it like apologetically, because it's a weekday and most people are working. And, you know, even I get caught up in all that stuff, even though I agree with everything you just said. Yeah, it's hard. I think it's I think it's hard. It's the inner pieces, it's the inner constraints and the outer constraints. You know, we've been taught like those messages are drilled into us from the time that we're young, like, oh, I'm being, I'm being bad, or I'm not supposed to be doing this, I'm not supposed to be taking this nap. Like it's this um little stolen luxury. But I think this is the this is what the fucking industrial revolution did. It basically took our time away from us and then sold it back to us. Like we have to buy it, right? Yes, it's as if it's not our time, as if our time doesn't actually belong to us. It belongs to an employer, it belongs to a company, it belongs to something else. Yeah, and it's interesting, even when we're entrepreneurs or not in that environment, that way of thinking and being is really hard to shed. Well, it's because we're taught from it, we're taught that the time belongs to the school when we're kids. It's like you have you show up when they tell you to, you go on, you're on their schedule, you take your breaks when they tell you to. It's yeah, absolutely. So from time we're pretty small, we're on somebody else's schedule that they've created for us. It's supposed to be in our best interest, but I don't know about you, I hated it.

SPEAKER_04 15:44

I still do not work for me. It does not work for me either. I do not like it. I like to have freedom of schedule, yeah.

Linda 15:51

And yet when you do, which I do, I do have freedom of schedule, and I have designed my work life to fit the rhythms that I prefer. Um, I had to shift them a bit when I changed time zones, so that was took some adjustment. But um, you do get those reactions from people though, the must be nice.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Yes.

Linda 16:09

And yes, it is, it is very nice. And I really wish that we would somehow create a world where that became normal. Where it wasn't something that is reserved for a few people, like that that was just something that was an intrin, again, an intrinsic and natural right as a human being, yeah, is to live a life where you don't need massages to recover. Yes, or you don't have to buy back your own time. I love I love the way you said that. That's yeah, that just really struck me because that feels so true. It's just it's weird, you know, and I think that's what happens when we started selling our our our hours for money. Yeah, the the time no longer belonged to us. Yep. Yeah. I often think about when I used to visit my great-grandparents in Tennessee, which I did a lot when I was a kid. I'm lucky enough to have had them in my life until I was in my twenties. Um that we would, you know, when it was hot in the hot season in this in the afternoon, everyone goes out and sits under the tree. It's like two o'clock in the afternoon. Go out and sit under the tree for a couple of hours and just talk and hang out and drink lemonade, you know. It's like it's sounds like such a southern stereotype, but it was true. Um, because it was too hot to do anything else. Yep. And there was no air conditioning, and they had a farm, and of course, you know, fields aren't air conditioned, and they the life was just set up that way. I mean, they got up early and they started their day early to accommodate that, but it was definitely a sweet rhythm in the sense of there was this extended break in the middle of the day. And as a kid, I loved it, you know, yeah, just hang out with the adults, just sitting around, shooting the breeze. Like that was amazing.

SPEAKER_04 17:48

Yeah.

Screens News And Energy Drain

Nature As The Original Power Source

Linda 17:49

Well, it also feels like it was a natural rhythm that was dictated by nature, by the fact that, like, oh, it's actually too hot to be doing a whole lot else. So we're just gonna enjoy a glass of lemonade in the shade. Yeah. And and for a couple hours, like it would felt like a luxurious amount of time. Um, but I I can't imagine people doing that now. I mean, maybe they still do. I mean, those people in my life passed on a long time ago, so I'm not visiting the South like I used to, but I can't imagine that they would be though. I think we'd now we sure as heck wouldn't be sitting under a tree drinking lemonade. We'd be sitting in front of the computer or sitting in front of our phones, or you know, there's very little of that again. It's it's I think that's another piece for me in terms of sourcing energy is when I am in front of devices too much, or you know, especially my phone, like that becomes such unless I'm doing something like this or I'm having a conversation with a friend, you know, like the thing where you get off the phone and you have more energy and you both have more energy than when you started. But you know, looking at the news or social media or like all of the things that just become rote habit, so often they're not um they're not life enhancing, but we're still constantly stimulated. And so I think that to me too doesn't feel like a form of self-care. It feels like this constant kind of external stimulation, external stress. And I think I don't even realize sometimes, like I'm pretty good at you know, listening to my body nowadays, knock on wood, not perfect, but a lot better than I was. But there are still times where I'm like, oh, maybe reading all of those articles about AI being really bad and what's gonna happen in two years, maybe that did actually stress me out and then it comes out in my dreams or it comes out in like jaw tension, you know. I'm like, oh, that wasn't actually sourcing energy. That was just depleting it under this very common, you know, thing of like, oh, but I have to stay informed. Right, right. Well, and I have to admit that I've even been there times that I've been so tired, I feel like I can't really do any work, but I ended up, I am I'm not doing this so much now, but I would end up sitting and watching like reels on Facebook for like 30 minutes when I could have taken a nap, you know, like using that little bit of space because I felt like too tired to work. So it was like was that fulfilling? Did that bring me energy? No. And no, and the reason I don't do it now isn't because I'm like moved on to something better, it's because I can't tell what's AI and what's not, and so I don't enjoy them anymore. Um, so I stopped doing that. But it wouldn't it would make more sense to be like, oh, I've got 30 minutes, I should just close my eyes, you know, instead of staring at the thing that's making me more tired. I know, I know. It's well, this was one of the things too. The other piece around this topic um that came up this week. I did a COIA class with Rochelle Sheikh, who's the founder, and so she's done extensive studies uh with the Cairo people, the indice, which are an indigenous people in from Peru. Uh Indigenous peoples, uh Indigenous peopling. Um and she had said in the in the class, the class was about, you know, practicing like holistic presence in those moments where we are entirely present to who we're with, what we're doing, body, mind, spirit, heart, all of the different aspects of us. Um and one of the women in the class had shared, you know, well, sometimes that feels really exhausting, like being like offering my whole presence feels exhausting. And Rochelle shared one of the teachings of the Caro, who really, you know, have a lot of nature based practices, nature based beliefs. And they were like, well, so many things that ail the human beings now in the modern world are this disconnection from nature. Because nature, nature's uh energy is abundant, it's not scared, like it's not scarce, but we Been severed in our modern life from this, like our original energy source, what we could call in some ways, like our original attachment, like our our greater mother, if you will. We've been severed from that. And so they say instead of going and going out to nature and receiving that energy and filling that up in a sustainable way, we take it from one another. We have a tendency to like notice, like, oh, this person has energy. I'm gonna latch on and I'm gonna take some of it for myself rather than oh, let me go and put like you did with your family. Like, let's go sit up against and underneath this tree and drink lemonade and talk with other human beings. You know, like that's a very different, it's a very different vibe that I think that um that piece too comes in really strongly for me in terms of how do we source our energy in sustainable ways is to re-establish our connection with nature. Yeah. Yeah in whatever ways are available to us where we are. Yeah, I completely agree with that. Just thinking about when I lived in Ithaca and I would go out and walk every day because the trails are right next to my house, and I'd be out in the woods, you know, in a matter of minutes, I could walk out my door and be in the woods. So, and I loved it. And I know it was the dream. It was the dream. It was the dream. And I don't have that now where I live. So it's it's interesting how much I do miss it and I think about it a lot, but I hadn't until you're just now when you're talking about thinking about it as an energy source, but I can definitely see how that was helping me, especially as I was living in a difficult time. Thankfully, now I don't have the difficult time, so I don't need that so much. But um, but I think it was one of the things that kept me going.

unknown 23:49

Yeah.

Linda 23:51

And I think that um again, it's that piece around the word natural like comes up for me. It's like there's this that to me is it's natural to be out in nature. This is how human beings have evolved is in relationship with plants and animals and the stars and the moon and the sun. And that has been severed in so many ways. And I think that we're just now beginning to recognize perhaps like what we have lost. Yeah. I think understanding and and being a part of the rhythms of nature has been helpful to me in the past. But you know, when we lived out in the country when my kids were little and we had spectacular sunsets every night. And we probably have beautiful sunrises too. I personally chose not to see them, but we you know, we have beautiful sunsets. And I it was one of my great choices to be to like get the kids and go sit on the front steps and watch the sunset, you know. And uh there's something about being in touch with that too that helps anchor me in uh in the calendar, like you know, and I don't have that now, and I'm really aware of it because I there's so many times when I'm confused now about what month we're in and the weather, these crazy temperatures we've been having, you know, it's like 72 one day and 42 the next. And you know, and this morning the feel like temperature is 17, even though I was felt too hot to go for a walk on Wednesday. It just doesn't make any sense. And so it's hard to know where we are and the rhythm of the year. Plus, I don't live in a place where I see the regular like I don't see the sunset every day here. Um yeah, it's it's I hadn't really thought about it until we're talking about it, but I think that really did help to anchor me in some ways. Yes, yeah, and to honor those transitions, you know, like sunset, sunrise if you're awake for it, you know. There's there is this kind of gradual lightning and darkening, the the opening of the day, the closing of the day. Like it is this old, ancient rhythm of here's the day of productivity or action or you know, whatever it is that we associate with the daytime, and then this gradual slowing down. And I think that's something that we kind of missed too, with like the idea of a punch clock. It's like you're on or you're off. I think it's it's been part of what has contributed, perhaps, never thought of this either before, but contributed to that sense of black or white thinking, all or nothing, yes or no, on or off, that doesn't really exist in nature, you know, like things are a process, things are gradual, there are transitions. It's not like boom, and then the sun comes on, like when you turn on a light switch, you know? And it's like I'll see in the morning when I turn on the light to, you know, and over my seeds or in the laundry room when I'm getting Ursa her little breakfast treat that she gets before I walk, and I'll flick on the light switch. And if it's been dark in the house, like her eyes are just like, what is that? Like we can see it, right? Because that's not that's not natural either. Like things aren't typically in nature this kind of on or off. It's a very it's a slow and gradual transition, but I think there's something, at least for me, in my body, that that also it does feel anchoring and it feels like a like a the breath, an inhale and an exhale, the tide that rolls in and the tide that rolls out, something that is soothing for my nervous system in a world that we have designed where is very not that right. So there is very abrasive. It is, and there isn't much downtime. Like you have to like I I really I'm going back to what you said, but I loved it so much. When you take where to buy back our own time, we have to steal back our own time. Like you have to, and that's how it feels when you take downtime for yourself. It's like, oh, what what am I supposed to be doing right now? You know, it's like I'm taking this time. Um, and I think that's been one of the joys of the relationship that I'm in right now, is that he doesn't really have he has an interesting relationship to time that can be problematic sometimes, which Linda knows, um, because he's just not tied to the clock the way that I am. And but but it's also has its lovely side, which is like he freely takes down time. And so there are times when we're I feel like I'm in college, we're just like hanging out, talking. The other night, got up from the dinner table and it was 10:30. And I'm like, how did it get to be 10 30? And he said, Because we were having a great conversation hanging out at the dinner table, and I it's just like I can't believe it, you know. And part of me started to panic a little bit, like, what did I need to do tonight? And then I was like, Oh, you know, actually, no, I didn't really need to do anything. This is actually perfect, but but you know, it's that we're just taught to be so on that it, you know, it's like when I was a kid, it certainly didn't feel that way. No, it felt very like time felt like luxurious and spacious, and I was like, oh, what a joyous, like those are the best moments where you're having a good meal and a great conversation, and you have no sense of the time passing, it's just like you're in the moment, enjoying it. And yeah, I'm like, isn't that what life is meant to be more of than this kind of rigid popping up to the next thing? And I'm so guilty of that.

SPEAKER_04 29:26

Like, I'll be like, Bing, I gotta go wash the dishes, bing, I gotta go to this, you know, like just like popping around, like I don't know, some crazy buddy rabbit, like instead of just settling in.

Linda 29:39

And I again, it's like I remember being a kid, and when we lived here when I was younger, I loved the R.L. Stein uh novels, like those scary stories. And I would sit in my little inner tube. I had two inner tubes, one would be like under my uh armpits, and one would be kind of on my butt, and it made a perfect little chair with an armrest for me, and I would be sitting in the pool for hours just reading my book, like just floating around. And I like it sounds like heaven. I know, right? And it's uh like there's just so much. I also think of how much beauty there is in the world that we miss because we're always rushing to and fro. Yeah. And how that impacts the way that we engage with one another, how that impacts the way that we relate to the natural world around us. Um, there's very little space for wonder or delight or surprise or awe when you're like, shit, I gotta get to my appointment. Right. Or spontaneity, or it's true. It's true. And you know, I hadn't really put this together until this conversation, but one of the things that sort of bothered me about living here are there are no clocks. Like Richard has one clock at the g in on the microwave in the kitchen. He has no clock, which you know fits, right? Like I said, he has a loose relationship with time. I put a clock in the bathroom because when I get ready in the morning, I feel like I need to know what time it is. That's so funny. I know, and I didn't think about it until just now, but now I'm starting to appreciate that there are no clocks. I mean, the reason we lingered at the dinner table is because in the dining area there's no clock. So I wasn't looking at the time. We don't have any screens. We purposely put our phones away when we sit down to eat. So no way of knowing the time. I'm just thinking how we have no clocks.

SPEAKER_04 31:33

We have a we have not a single clock except for in the kitchen on the microwave and on like and they're right next to each other.

SPEAKER_05 31:41

One's on the microwave and one's on the oven. Luckily, now the oven is one is legible because so many of the little lines on the microwave have gone out. We're like, does that say eight or three?

SPEAKER_04 31:51

Like, or is it a five? No clue.

Linda 31:54

That's okay. Richard actually has two. Also, he has I didn't now that you mentioned it, there's one on the stove and the microwave, and they're right above each other. Yep. But that's so funny. Linda, by the way, for this has nothing to do with the topic, she also has no mirrors in her house. First time I visited her, I'm like, well, you guys definitely aren't vain people because I can't find a mirror anywhere.

SPEAKER_03 32:16

And I was like, no, there's one in that bathroom across the house. It's like, geez.

SPEAKER_05 32:24

So often I come out in the morning and we would take Ursa for a walk, and I have not looked in the mirror at all. I have no idea what I look like.

Linda 32:30

Yeah, I love this about you. I've always I don't have it here, but I've always had a mirror by the door so I could look at myself before I go out the door.

SPEAKER_05 32:39

No, that's uh people who live in my neighborhood probably know that I don't.

Relationships That Leave You Fuller

Linda 32:48

I love that. I do think like I was thinking about what you were saying about um the woman at Koya talking about, you know, being fully present, being exhausting. I do think relationships can be a source of energy, though, if they're the right relationships. So I think I I've definitely had people who drain me, no doubt about it, for sure. Um, but then there are other people where like you where it's like we get together and I can be so tired when we start having a conversation and I feel so energized at the end.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

Yeah.

Linda 33:21

Um, when we had our sister mind group, the mastermind that I ran for five years, I would invariably leave those meetings thinking, what can I do on my business? Everybody else is doing such amazing things. It would totally inspire me. It made me feel like, oh, I want to do some of that too. Like, what can I do? So sometimes I would purposely plan hard tasks to do right after that meeting because it was such a source of energy and it made me feel like anything's possible. Look at what these amazing women are doing. Yes, you know, or the relationship I'm in now, like because he does create spacious time and you know, he'll hang out and talk and laugh. And I feel like I'm in college again when we used to have time to just sit around and shoot the shit, you know? It's like great long conversations with people. That's how you get to know people in college, you know. Although talking to kids today, it sounds like they don't have as much of that, but um, probably because of the internet, but you know, because they you don't have to have in-person people, you've got people on a screen.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Yeah.

Linda 34:19

But anyway, what what do you think about that about relationships in terms of being energizing? I mean, I a hundred percent agree with what you said, that I think it depends on the relationship that and to be cognizant of that, you know, but cognizant of the places where you walk away and it feels like a mutual, like both people walk away with more energy versus oh, I came in really energetic, but I walked away really depleted. And the person who came in started out really depleted and feels really energetic, and then you're like, Well, shit, I think I know what happened here. Um paying me, I don't enjoy that. Exactly. And this is kind of what we were saying. I think, um, I think we were saying this a little while ago about in those kinds of places, you know, there has to be another form of energy exchange. Because of course, if you're a practitioner, if you're a therapist, if you're a coach, you are coming in with that whole presence. Like that is part of the gift that we're offering. And it's you're not every coaching session or therapy session, you're gonna expect to feel like a conversation with a friend, but there is this other, then there's another form of energy exchange that is happening. Um, and yeah, I think that a hundred percent there is a resonance that happens between certain people where those and those are the relationships that it's like, oh, let's foster the ones where it feels like it's this you get together and a new, even more and like lighter, bubblier, like more whole version of yourself of both people comes in. Like those are the kinds of relationships that I want more of. Um, and I wonder too, if that might be, you know, kind of putting it together with what the caro said. If people were out in nature and were filling themselves also in other ways, would there be more of that than, you know, we've been sitting at in front of a desk and we've been commuting to work and we've been stressed, and you you don't really get you don't you're not really bringing a lot of energy to the table at that point, you know, like right. Well, even for me, not having natural light is depleting. And so if I'm doing the things you just described, so for example, in order to be on the screen right now, I close the blinds because it's so bright in here. We get a lot of natural light in this room, but it doesn't work for being on Zoom. And so I'm not receiving that right now. And I notice a difference on the days like when I'm sitting on Zoom all day long. I notice I have to get outside or go sit on the balcony.

unknown 36:57

Yeah.

Linda 36:57

And if there's any, like now it's lighter later, which is great, because then I can get out and get a little bit of sun, and it makes a huge difference for me. And I don't have like seasonal depression or anything like that. It's just that I notice the physical difference for me if I don't get some natural light. Oh yeah. Oh, being under fluorescent lighting. Oh, yeah. Horrible. Oh, yeah, that's even worse. It's the worst of the worst, but yeah, I completely agree. This is also why we have no uh, what are those called? Drapes or curtains. We also have no curtains in our house. That's true. I've noticed that too. No mirrors.

SPEAKER_04 37:32

So you can't see yourself, but everyone else outside can see you. You have no idea what time it is.

Linda 37:38

It's a fishbowl. It's a fishbowl. Fish don't have clocks either. Or mirrors for that matter. It is fun to visit everyone. It's true, you don't have any. I was just thinking about that. I was like, oh, we also don't have that, but I think that's part of the reason is because I I also feel that. Like I love natural light. I love having lots of plants. We have a shit ton of indoor plants that also love the natural light. And it's you know, like that silly meme where it was like you're basically a houseplant with complex emotions. You know, we have kind of similar needs. We need water, we need sunlight, we need, you know, pleasant conversation.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Plants have pleasant conversation. Oh, they do. They definitely do.

The Bigger Questions Behind Burnout

Linda 38:26

So yeah, I think it's uh I just I think that's the piece for me is that sense of the bigger questions oftentimes don't get asked because they're much more difficult to answer and they're much more difficult to enact. And so it's really easy to just get stuck like a in the wheel, in the hamster wheel, and then being like, well, I gotta have my massage or my little dove chocolate or you know, my little treat for adulting or whatever it is, my treat for living a boring life is gonna be this Starbucks slatte or whatever, you know. I'm also guilty of that, so no judgment. Um but I think these other questions are again so much deeper and more interesting to me. Is like, but what if we like we designed this thing? That's the part that's like always in the back of my mind when I'm like human beings made this, we made it up, it comes from our imagination, and then we get up every day and we recreate the same fucking thing. Yes, which is what I used to say to people about when I was homeschooling, and they'd be like, But how do you know that your kids are learning it? I'm like, it's all made up. This how do you know when they're supposed to learn certain things? It's all made up. It's like there's no tome handed down from the heavens that said every child needs to learn to read by five years old. Yeah, it's like it's not, it's that's it's just what the school made up, and then we all live by it as if it's some kind of doctrine. Because they need all the kids in the same class to kind of have the same same be at the same place because otherwise it makes it harder to teach. That's how we started homeschooling to begin with. The kindergarten teacher didn't want kids who could read in her class. She said they're disruptive, like the curriculum's geared toward pre-readers. And my kid was reading Little House on the Prairie at four years old. So it's like, we're not putting my shy kid in this room where she's not even wanted, like, you know, so that's how we started homeschooling to begin with. It wasn't like we had some grand plan that that's what we were gonna do. It's just, you know, I just didn't want my kid in that environment. So yeah, but I think in some ways, we're all that kid. We're all we're all that kid being forced into an environment that doesn't really work for us. And I also think that as women, a lot of us, thankfully, I don't count myself among them anymore, but a lot of us are in relationships, like where our partner also demands a lot from us in terms of taking care of the emotional load and the mental load, and that can also be exhausting. So if you're not having someone by your side in the evenings or in the off time who re-energizes you, that can also contribute to that sense of depletion. Yes. Yeah. And I think that so many, so many people I think are operating at what I would call like an energy deficiency, like a deficit. And that's just become normalized. Yes. And to your point of what you were saying a few minutes ago, we tend to look at like life hacks and tweaks as opposed to asking those bigger questions, like you were talking about a minute or two ago. And it's also like, what can I do? Like, what how am I failing? I'm falling short, I'm feeling tired, I'm you know, I'm not able to keep up with these demands that everyone else seems to be able to keep up with. Like I found more work. Yeah, I found myself saying that. I'm like, what is wrong with me? I have already set up my life in this way, you know. What why am I still getting knots in my back? And I'm like, oh, but it's it goes way beyond that, right? It goes, it that's part of it. Like, yay, for that, more. We all need to take the agency that we have and run with it and do what we can, and to realize that we exist in these greater holes. And as we've learned from the trees, I just finished reading a wonderful book called Finding the Mother Tree. It's we're all in connection, we are all uh in collaboration, whether we're aware of it or not. So the health and the thriving of the whole is naturally going to affect our individual health and our well-being and the way that we can show up and grow and bloom fully. So, like you were saying, the intimate partner is being a big part of that, and also our communities and the greater world at large. And so when when these things are ailing, it's a lot to try to put it on an individual that, like, well, you're not doing it right and getting enough massages. Right.

unknown 43:08

Right.

Linda 43:08

Or, you know, you could get up a couple hours earlier and have time for you. Yeah, get up at four.

unknown 43:13

Yeah.

Linda 43:14

Get up at four, and as long as it's not infringing on anybody else, it's your time. You can do what you want.

SPEAKER_04 43:21

That's your time, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 43:22

That's your time when no one else is awake, when there's nothing else, then it belongs to you.

Practical Shifts And The Should Test

Linda 43:29

After that, it belongs to everyone else. Exactly. That's your time to you know put energy in your tank to fuel yourself. Really like my energy in my tank needs nine hours of sleep. Thank you very much. I've always hated that advice for women. Try to get up earlier than your family so you can have some time for you. It's like, what? Yeah. Oh, I I feel like we could talk about this in so many different there's so many threads here, but it was such an enlivening conversation, as always. Do you have any any insight into the question from this conversation about how to live your life so you don't need massages? I don't expect a full answer. I just wonder if anything has shifted. I mean, I think that there are certain things that I know that are I could let go of and things that I could supplement with that help to shift that balance more so more time outside, connecting with nature, less time in front of the screen, more time having juicy, fun, enlivening conversations with friends and Eric, and you know, like doing the things that really do just naturally fill me up. Um, I think is a big part of it. And I think that um looking at the places too, kind of to what I was just saying, that it's it's it can be tricky when it seems like the world out there is really ailing in so many different ways, but also connecting with the other other people who have similar values, who care about similar things. Cause I think part of what forms the knots are like the frustration and the anger with other human beings that I'm like, you motherfuckers, um that are, you know, I and and letting those kind of take center stage from the people who are really engaged in creating a more beautiful world and working with them and learning from each other and uh reading books like this one about people who are out studying the the trees and how they communicate and how we can make our forests healthier again. I think that there's just yeah, those are the things that come up. How about for you? Well, I was I agree with everything you were just saying, and I was thinking about um trying, I'm trying to read more that's inspirational, that's less oh my god, everything's awful. Sorry, I sent you that book about plastic.

SPEAKER_03 46:02

Well, I'm reading small bits of that, really small bits of that. That's smart, not smart.

Linda 46:07

It's a good book, but yeah, it's a lot. And so trying to feed my mind and my soul with possibility is the thing that has been really helpful lately. When everything looks so dire at times, you know, but just knowing that there are people who are solution focused in a in a wise way, not just uh like I've got my blinders on, so I'm doing this. I don't that doesn't help me at all. Um, but I I find that to be fuel, yeah. And it helps me keep moving, but it also helps me think in bigger picture ways about my own life when I'm around people that are doing that.

SPEAKER_04 46:48

There's that expansion that we were talking about at the very beginning of the call. See, that's what I'm talking about, people. The seeing of the possibilities and feeding your soul and your spirit with possibility rather than the doom, which is contraction, right?

Linda 47:06

This is that's the expansion right there. Yeah. Well, I'll I'll say one last thing and then we can say we can say goodbye. But I wrote this down, but I didn't say it was we were talking. But I also, for me, the word should is a real indicator of contraction and and is also a real indicator that I'm not sourcing myself with good energy. You know, should is not good energy. So that's something I pay attention to, and I often invite my clients to pay attention to. So if that's helpful to anybody, I'll just throw that in in the last minute here. I love that could be its own whole topic. I'm like now, I'm like, but that's exactly that's a wonderful sign that you're not owning your time. Yes, is when we're shoulding, when we're saying I should be doing this according to who. Yes, who what part of you is has you know internalized some external authority or power structure to which you are now beholden. I love that. On that note, friends, okay.

SPEAKER_04 48:11

Such a pleasure, as always. As always. Until next time.