Why Is It So Hard To Say No?

What if the most loving thing you say this week is no? 

Welcome to Season 5 Episode 5!

We unpack why so many women default to appeasement: early grooming to be pleasing, the fawn response as a learned safety strategy, and the sales culture that pressures quick yeses. Then we rebuild choice from the body up. Learn how to slow urgency, map your personal signals for yes and no, and test boundaries in low-stakes moments so you can recognize red flags sooner. We talk about instinct injury, how it severs us from our inner mammal, and what it takes to restore that bond without swinging into all-or-nothing reactions.

Expect frank examples—like saying no to hard-sell tactics, retiring the “I’m fine” reflex, and practicing small refusals while dating to see how a partner handles your autonomy. We connect the dots between chronic compliance and real-world costs: resentment, health issues, and relationships built on performance rather than presence. With nervous-system-aware support, a no becomes clean, kind, and steady, even when others test it. As John O’Donohue reminds us, being faithful to your life demands renewal. No is the gate that guards that fidelity and the ground from which a true yes can rise.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs backup for their next boundary, and leave a review to help more listeners reclaim their yes and their no.

Transcript

Fiery Open And Mutual Praise

Linda 0:02

Hello and welcome to episode five, season five, the fives of the Woman on Cage podcast. My name is Linda Katz, and I'm here with my beloved bestie co-conspirator, Tiger Mama, Ms. Laura Gates Lufton, who I have to say has been very fiery over the last couple of days. And for very good reason, the state of the world gives a woman many reasons to be quite fiery. But that is one of the things, one of the many, many things that I love about you, Laura, is that you have this soft, beautiful heart, this deep caring, uh, this wisdom. And I also just fucking love when that like bear, mama, mama bear, mama tiger energy comes out and this really strong protective stance that you take for women, for children, for the environment, for the things that really matter to you. I feel like you have this just a beautiful way of holding all of these different energies. Um, and it's just such a potent combination. So, my dear listeners, if you are looking for a coach that can help to invite that forth in you, whether it is allowing space for softness, whether it is allowing space to find your authentic voice and stand up for yourself, or is the fucking total package? And apparently I am cursing like a sailor today. All these planets in Aries, that's what I'm blaming. It's so wonderful to be here with you today, Laura, as always. Well, thank you, Linda. Linda and I are both Aries rising in case anyone's curious.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

So it makes sense we're feeling extra fiery from a planetary perspective as well.

Spotlight On Books, Substack, And Wildness

Naming The Theme: The Sacred No

People Pleasing And Self‑Betrayal

The 24‑Hour Pause And Buffer

Linda 1:54

Yes. Um, yeah, and I'm so grateful to be here with you. And it's funny because you're talking about my ability to hold all those things and my ability to do that grew exponentially when I was your client. So Linda's not taking coaching clients right now, but when she does, if you want more of that in your life, I highly recommend you head her way. Um, because one of my great dilemmas was how do I still be soft and sensitive and hold these things that matter so much to me and that piss me off so much? So and I have to say, also the way watching how you live your life has also been inspirational to me because I think the same of you. Um, so yeah, I love that you that you recognize that in me because that's that means a lot to me that's coming from you. Um and you know, every everyone here, please, Linda's not taking coaching clients right now, but you can have more of Linda if you want it in the form of her book, which is called Homecoming. She is such a beautiful, soulful writer. Much as she's a beautiful, soulful woman, it just comes out in the words on the page. I love that book so much. Um, and I got to read it four times as her editor, which I really enjoyed. Um, and also her substack. She has a great substack called Woman in the Burbs. It's beautiful. I I love how she talks about connecting to your wildness and your uniqueness and that fiery energy that we all have and the soft energy that we all have, no matter where you live. You don't have to go live in the mountains, you don't have to live in the woods. You can do it in the burbs. And I love that because I think so much of the time when I speak of Linda as a wild feminine life coach, people are like, but I can't do that. I live in a city, or I can't do that because I don't live in a place that allows for that. It's not really about the externals, it's about the internal experience. And that's what Linda conveys so beautifully in her writing, both in her Substack and in her book. And I highly recommend both. So good to be here with you today, my dear. Thank you. And what are these two fiery Aries rising women going to be talking about today? Saying no. The sacred no, man. The sacred no. Um, this came up because I've had a couple of really important conversations that I'm not gonna share the specifics, specifics of because they were confidential with two clients recently about what their inability to say no caused, basically, what the consequences were for them in their lives. And the consequences were huge in both instances. And again, because they're so specific, I'm not gonna talk about them because I don't want to betray their confidence. Um, but it's had me thinking a lot about for women, especially the costs of not being able to say no. And we are so groomed. This is not a personal failing. If you struggle with saying no, this is not a personal failing. This is something you were groomed for. We've all been groomed to be pleasing. Yeah, Linda just said this little smiley face. Yes, exactly. To be perfectly pleasing. It's like we've been groomed to be flight attendants in our lives. You know, it's like to look nice, to be pleasing, to be quiet, to not cause any trouble. To always smile. How many times have we been told smile? Oh my god, just smile constantly. You look so much nicer when you smile. Yeah, and that's all I really care about. Exactly. No is seen as not being pleasing. And so therefore, it's really hard for us to say. And that's what we're talking about today. And I'm curious, Linda, when I when I say these things, what does it bring up for you? Oh my gosh, it brings up so many things. I don't know where to start. I mean, I think as a recovering people pleaser, I can speak from my own experience around what are some of the consequences of not being able to say no. One, I think, is the self-betrayal that tends to happen when we are not actually tuned in to what we truly desire. And when we say yes before, oftentimes it's it's not even considered. It's just before you even have a moment to take in is this something, is this a request? Is this something I want to say yes to? A yes just kind of goes, of course, just kind of slips out like a wet soap out of your mouth. And it's um I think we really ought to normalize also that it's like because this is difficult and because what we're one, we're trained to be appeasing, two, we're not trained to listen to our own inner guidance and our own inner voice. We're trained to look to the outside and what the world wants from us. So if someone's asking something of us, they want us to say yes. And so when we're focused on that external party, we don't even have the invitation or the, you know, the learning, I would say in our culture for for girls and women to pause and say, you know, let me think about whether that's something that I can commit to or want to commit to right now. Let me get back to you. Because sometimes we need a little extra buffer to be able to discern what is actually true for us. Because we could say, you know, we can say yes kind of just without thinking about it. There's also the opportunity, less frequent, I would say, especially for women, but I do know some people who will just say no automatically. It's like, and neither one is actually a conscious choice if we get stuck in one or the other. We want it to be able to be coming from the center of ourselves. And so that's the first piece is I think it's that self-betrayal when we don't actually listen for what's true for us and act on it. And then we don't sense that we have our own backs because we might get ourselves into situations that we don't actually want to be in. And the second, I think, is that goodness gracious, and this is something that I've experienced in my life, and you know, when I was coaching clients, I would see a lot of is when we don't say no up front, the extrication process later on, when we realize that we have gotten ourselves into a pickle that we just really don't want to be in, it makes the choice much more difficult later on. Because it's either like, well, shit, we're so far in that now I can't pull out. I already said the thing that I would do this thing, or you know, whatever. I'm halfway into the project. I realize I'm in over my head. I don't have the time, I don't have the energy, I don't have the bandwidth or the desire to do this, or it's this very convoluted, long extrication process that I think ends up being uh to the detriment of all parties involved, usually that could be much easier if we do it at the front end. Yes. And it's hard. Like I still struggle with that in my life. There's still situations where I'm like, oh shit, now I gotta like extricate myself out of this and it's gone. This now it's gotten even more awkward because I didn't deal with it. I was conflict avoidant. Yep. And so I didn't say no or didn't deal with the situation at the front end, and then you know, time goes on, and then you're like, oh god, now it's just a whole big mess. That could have been dealt with in much more clean and honest and actually kind way in the long run. Yeah, absolutely. And I I what I see too a lot of the times is when somebody needs to extricate themselves from something they said yes to and they're realizing they didn't really want to say yes, they struggle, and I and I I really should say we, because it's been true for me as well, um, with feeling like, oh, I don't have a good enough reason. Like just not wanting to isn't a good enough reason. So and then there's a tendency to want to over-explain because you're trying to get the other person to truly understand, and even to say, like, oh yeah, clearly you have too much going on, therefore you can't, or too much clearly this is going on, so you can't. And that's not usually what happens. Yeah. Usually people are, I mean, it depends, but they they aren't gonna necessarily say, Oh, obviously this is clear, unless like you know, you're like, well, three of my family members just died and I need to take care of this, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

They'd be like, Oh, okay, in that case, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Usually a massive extraneous circumstances.

Linda 10:34

Usually there's some disgruntlement. And in part, I think it can be because why didn't you just tell me earlier? Yeah, because there's you know, it has consequences for both parties.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

Yeah.

Linda 10:45

Um, but yeah, I absolutely see that too. It's it's a real struggle too. But I know with some of my clients, one of the things we've done is institute a 24-hour rule, just temporarily, just to give them something to to work with and to practice. And even they can even say, like, you know, I'm working with a coach right now, and I can't say yes, I have to think about it for 24 hours. That's just the rule we came up with. I'll get back to you.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

Yeah.

Linda 11:08

Um, and so that I don't mind them putting it on me if that feels more comfortable.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

Yeah.

Linda 11:12

But just to practice with putting some space before before saying yes. And that's even when they know they want to. Putting in the 24-hour rule, even when they know they want to say yes. Just to feel what that feels like, to give themselves some space. And and to feel what it feels like to imagine they're inconveniencing somebody a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

Yeah.

Linda 11:37

Because that's part of it too. We don't want to inconvenience other people. No, we don't want to leave them waiting. Right. We want to get I know we want to get back immediately, an immediate response. And I think that, you know, that from hearing you say that it reminds me too that there's a lot of belief, I think, and fear around, you know, if it's something that we do want to say yes to, that, oh my God, but if I don't say yes immediately, they're gonna pass on me. They're gonna get they're gonna get mad at me and they're gonna move on to somebody else. Yeah. And it is such a it can be a really uncomfortable but very potent and rich experience to sit in those 24 hours and just to witness all of the things that start to come up.

unknown 12:22

Yep.

Linda 12:22

All the thoughts, all the feelings in the body, all of it. Yep. Which is one of the reasons I use Boxer support with a lot of my clients in between sessions, because it's a convenient way for them to voice some of them for verbal processors, you know, they love to do that. And it's really helpful for them to be able to say, This is what I'm experiencing is I'm waiting in this 24-hour period. You know, and to and to hear themselves say it, it's not even so much so that I hear it, it's so that they hear it.

unknown 12:49

Yeah.

Linda 12:50

To really to get what that experience is about and to understand like how deeply ingrained all this stuff is, yes, you know, around saying yes and being pleasing and not inconveniencing anybody. And all the fear voices and everything that comes along with it. That's it. The fear of rejection and all of that. Yep. Yep. And I think the part that jumps out at me too, I you know, which is something that we talk about frequently, is that because we're such a disembodied culture, there's also that we don't we can't feel our intrinsic yes versus no. And we end up very much in our heads, and we can say yes to things that might look good on paper, but in the end, we we kind of knew were soul crushing, but they look good on paper. Because I think we are disconnected from the wisdom of the body, which is always speaking to us in in certain ways. It I, you know, I remember when I first started coaching and like having discovery calls, and like before some discovery calls, I would feel nauseous. And I just thought it was like, oh, I haven't, and it's like nerves or whatever. But whenever that was the case, it was always a mismatch or the person wouldn't show up. And I remember my coach at the time saying, you know, like that might just be your body like tuning you into like this is this is not a yes for you. Yeah, but we're so quick to minimize too, because the what our bodies are telling us, because to our my rational mind, I was like, well, that doesn't make any sense. But after it happened several times, I was like, well, maybe there is something to this. I don't feel this way when I talk to uh somebody who I then have a great connection with, and you know, that we become, you know, coach and client for many years. Yeah, that that wasn't the experience then. But um yeah, there's just so many, there's so many areas. I even just saying that, I'm like sales. I mean, the whole freaking industry is about overriding objections. Oh, I know. And I mean, that's why I never do a hard sell with clients ever. And I tell them that right up front that if you can take all the time in the world to think about whether you want to work with me or not, because first of all, I'm not cheap and it's a it's a big investment. And so I want people to think that through before they make it. And it's a big commitment, it's a big commitment of your time. I mean, this isn't easy, we're gonna do some serious work together. So I want it to be a solid hell yes for you. And if you're not there right now, then please go away and think about it. Yes, you know, the opportunity isn't gonna go away. I want you to go think about it. Um, and that's so important to me because yes, I can't stand all the talk around overcoming objections. If somebody has an objection, I want them to listen to it. Yes. And and we but we can see how there is this, all of these forces again that are about overriding those inner no's and not from a place of let me check if this is because sometimes we have a no, and it might be like the surface no that's fear or anxiety, you know, like there's so there's nuanced layers to this. Plenty of those. Exactly. It's like there are times when I'm like thinking about going on a big trip, and I'm like, well, it's a no. And I'm like, no, that's not a no, that's just a fear that's like sitting on top of an excited yes. And so it's we're we're complex as human beings. That's why we need at least the 24 hours to think about things and feel with them and see what happens. Um, but yeah, it's just it's crazy to see, you know, it's like all of those techniques of you want to just get people saying yes so they get a c get accustomed to saying yes, so that when you offer your product or your service, they're just primed to say yes. Yeah, and you ask them to whip out their credit card right now on the call, so we can do it right now. It's like I never do that ever.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

Yes.

Instinct Injury And The Fawn Response

Linda 16:49

Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a so abhorrent to me, I can't even speak about it. Like, I don't know, I can't talk. But I know one of the things I do with my clients, and I'd love to hear from your perspective too, is that you almost with every client we'll talk about a body-based yes and no so that they can start to feel like where in their body is a yes? Like how does that feel when it's a yes, and how what does their body feel like when it's a no? Because most of them haven't been taught this at all. I'm curious, do you do some of that with your clients as well? Yes, definitely. I think it's one of the it is such an effective process, like it's such an effective. I don't like using the word tool, but it, you know, this a practice that can be an easy way in to listening to the wisdom of the body. Because again, like we said, there's a lot of nuance there. And so coming in with like, what does a yes feel like versus a no? Is I think a very good and potent entry point. And to be able to take that time when we're making a decision to be like, well, how does this feel to me? Like what symbol, like symptoms is my body sending me? Like, what's happening with my digestion? Is my heart racing? Do I have a tightness in my diaphragm or my belly? Or is there like a warmth that's spreading through? You know, it's like when we start to recognize these things, we can see, you know, where the points of resonance are. We can begin to see that in relationships and how we feel in different relationships. We can begin to see whether it's a yes or a no when we're making decisions. Um, but it's been the body's been so discounted that you know, we are taught to just make a list of pros and cons. Right. In all of our decisions. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I feel the same way. And that's and also I've had clients who've said things like, Well, I don't think I have there, I don't think I have a feeling for yes or no in my body. And it turns out everybody does really. It's just a matter of tapping into it. And so for my clients, I often have them imagine something that that's a clear yes for them, like something they love, like their favorite kind of ice cream or something like that, right? And like, how's your body feel when you picture pistachio ice cream? It's your favorite. It's like, that's your yes, you know? Yeah. And what's something you absolutely hate? Okay, you hate spiders. I'm gonna ask you how you'd feel if I put you in a bed with a hundred spiders. Like, what's that in your body? Yeah, you know, like make it so obvious. And then people are like, Oh, I didn't, I never knew that was there. Yep. It's our bodies are sending us so many signals, it's just that we don't we don't listen anymore. We are, you know, we've kind of blocked that out. It's very interesting. It's like something I was talking about with my parents um earlier this week because my mom has, you know, high blood pressure and she hates going to the doctor, and so her blood pressure spiked when she was there. And um, one of the phrases that I've been using a lot, just in for myself, like I use it with Ursa, sometimes I use it with my mom, with friends, clients, is like the wild animal of your body. Because I think we tend to forget with our big rational brains that we have these wild animal bodies that they are not going to act according to what we think they should be doing. Yeah. And anybody who's done any public speaking and especially initially knows what that feels like.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yes. You're like, oh no, like this is not, I do not want this to be happening. And I cannot seem to get it like under control.

Linda 20:23

And it was, but the reason I was bringing it up because it was funny. And my dad was like, ah, women, I just I don't understand you. And he was saying it kind of jokingly, you know, and I was like, yeah, because men are just cool as cucumbers. I was like, you just are so completely unaware of anything that is happening that your heart literally stopped the last time something happened to mom.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

But you were like, no, I'm not stressed at all. Totally not.

Linda 20:50

I'm just like, I feel like that's what we live, and we tend to see that as a as like a good thing, as a gold standard to be stoic, to be even keeled. And it's like, but what is it when you're not even aware of what's actually happening underneath? Is that stoicism? Is that being even keeled? No, that's why I love connection. That's why I love animals, is because you might be able to fool my brain. One, you're not going to be able to fool my body, but I might be so disconnected from my own body I might not even realize. But you won't be able to fool an animal. An animal will smell your fear, they will feel your stress, they will react to every pheromone and chemical thing that is happening in your body, and they can tell you with clarity what is real and what isn't. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and yeah, and there are times when for me, like somebody who doesn't really have a poker face, when it can be inconvenient. I don't want to show what I'm feeling all the time, you know?

unknown 21:52

Yes.

Linda 21:54

Um, but the reverse I wouldn't want either. I wouldn't want to be so disconnected that that I I can't tell what I'm feeling, and therefore nobody else can either. Yes. And of course, we can't just go on like, you know, we don't want to wear, I don't want to be the Ursul.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

I don't want my mom to, you know, bite the bite the nurse practitioner in a panic mode.

Linda 22:16

That yes, if my dog wasn't muzzled, she probably would. Um, but at the same time, I think that's such an important piece that it's we want to be aware of it. We may not always be able to show it or act on it, but we still are in a relationship with how we're feeling. And we can even like I always loved like the Gordon Newfield where we can like go back and then also reflect. Like there's like a nuanced relationship with our feelings where it's not like our body never, you know, people will say like the body never lies. And I'm like, I don't know if that's entirely true. I think the body is responding to a lot of different stimuli, internal, external. Um, but I think, you know, even something as complex as, you know, PTSD, it would be like a very extreme example where it's like the body is experiencing something just as if it's happening, even though it's not happening in this moment.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Yeah.

Costs Of Appeasement In Health And Relationships

Linda 23:11

And so even within this, it's there's just there's so much more nuance. And I think that's one of, I think that's one of our main points in almost every conversation we have. Like it's just not as simple as people make it out to be. That's true. That's true. And I think one of the things that we've talked about, you and I, and I don't even know if we've ever said this on the podcast, but we talk about it a lot ourselves, too, is how instinct injury plays a role in all of this. And I think you talk about this way more articulately than I do. So I'd love to hear you speak about it and how it relates to this struggle with saying no or even understanding that that's what would be in our own best interest in a given situation. I think I first came across that term in Women Who Run with the Wolves by Clarence Warren. I first came prostitutes. Yep. And um something just lit up within me because I think that it's such a an apt name that is also in our world where you know we receive spiritual downloads and all of these kind of more computer mechanical-based metaphors. Instinct injury, I think, really speaks to the organic, the creaturely, the mammalian animal part of us that knows yes or no and also knows how to react to that. And I would say, you know, like for like I'll look at my dog as an example because I feel like animals can be great examples with this. And I don't want her to always react to her instincts. That is not, I live in we live in a modern world. I can't have her always being like chasing the bunny rabbit or the squirrel or, you know, whatever it is. Yeah. But we can see there how that is still intact. And if somebody's coming close to her, that she's like, I do not want you to come close to me, she doesn't smile at them and say, Hi, oh, hey, she will let you know that she does not want you to come any closer to her and that she wants she wants her space. And through growling, teeth, you know, tackles raised, like all of the things that will say, do not, do not come into my personal space. I do not like this situation. But I think because as young women, little girls, women, young women, we have been trained oftentimes, I think, in some ways with good intentions to put a damper on those instincts. And instead, we learn to appease. So instead of having that fight or flight response of like, I'm getting the fuck out of here, or like, do not come any closer to me walking forward and being like, uh you are not encroaching on my space, we have been trained to have, I think, a lot of that fawning response. And we've been taught that that is how we stay safe, that we stay safe through appeasement. And I think it's passed down from generation to generation of women in patriarchal societies that this is how we stay safe. And then we don't learn to be in touch with our instincts, which I think is why we don't know how to feel our intrinsic yes or no. We kind of just cut those off. They happen in the body, but we're not conscious of them. Like there's so much that happens that we're not conscious of or aware of, and then we can't act on them accordingly.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Yes.

Linda 26:52

Yeah, I I think that's absolutely spot on. Um, I'm thinking about it for myself. I'm thinking about it for a lot of the women I work with, I'm thinking about it for a lot of the girls I've seen. I've worked with so many teen girls who just don't seem to have that at all. They really have the um appeasing as a safety strategy down, but not so much. And I the way I see it is too, we're cut off from our own sense of power. So it's instinct injury, but yes, it's also about our power and being, I think we're afraid of powerful women as a culture, which is why we tear women apart when they try to assume any kind of power. Um, and so therefore, for our own selves within our own selves, we're scared of our own power. And we we tend not to recognize where we have power in situations.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Yeah.

Testing Boundaries In Dating And Partnership

Linda 27:43

Instead, we tend to think of pleasing and appeasing as our only means of safety and survival, which isn't always accurate. I mean, sometimes, yes, absolutely. Yeah, but often not. That's what I was thinking too. It's like again, it's not an all or nothing. It's but it's it might be effective in occasion, but in other occasions, that might not be the most effective strategy. And if it's used in all these different areas of our lives, then it's probably not going to be effective because it's not dynamic, it's not responsive to an individual situation. You know, it's like even taking it out into you know, encountering wild animals. We keep talking about that, you know, it's like, yeah, there there might be a time to like don't run. Like you need to tap into that different, like you can't appease a wild edible. You might need to clap your hands, walk towards, show that you're not afraid, that you're make yourself bigger, make yourself bigger, you know. And so I think that, or with some animals, you play dead, you know, it's like there are different strategies for different occasions that may work more effectively, but we are not those are trained out of us, and so then we're just left with this.

unknown 29:03

Yep.

Linda 29:03

So even in a situation where it's like I should kick you in the fucking shin, I smile and say, okay. Yeah. I I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it on the podcast before, but I'll it's a bit serious, so I'll say it again. But my mom took me to a uh, I guess it was a self-defense class when I was about 15 or 16. I guess I think on the younger younger side, maybe 14 or 15. Um, and I can still picture the guy that ran it. He was a police officer, and I can still see some of the other people in there. Like it was such a vivid memory. But one of the things that the police officer told us was that, you know, if somebody's going to sexually assault you, just don't fight back because you might get hurt. Yeah. And I was so enraged hearing that. Because I'm like, but wait a minute, sexual assault hurts. Like, what are you talking about? What are you? How are you defining hurt? Yeah, he made it sound like, you know, it'll all be just fine if you just lay there and put, you know, pretend it's okay. And oh, it made me so mad. I went home. I just ranted and raved to my mom. I'm like, that's the worst advice ever. That's like giving the perpetrators a free card. Like, go ahead and sexually assault all these women in this room because they've been taught not to fight back. You it'll have it easy with them. Like, oh, it made me so mad. You know, and then as it turned out, when I was a little bit older, I was at a friend's house and her we were playing hide go seek a whole group of us, and her brother chased me behind the barn and tried to sexually assault me. He literally threw me in the dirt and I fought like hell. I got hurt. Yes, I did, and so did he. But I know, and and you know, that's a gamble. It could have I got lucky, I was able to fight him off. Um, and so I know that. And if you have been in a situation where you didn't fight back, I'm not saying you've done the wrong thing. I think sometimes, you know, sometimes that's the best you can do is not to fight back, it's just to survive a situation. Absolutely no blame for anybody who hasn't. No. Um, but to teach people explicitly don't ever fight back. So you quote, don't get hurt is egregious.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Yeah.

Linda 31:11

It's just like, how do you define getting hurt?

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Yes. You know what I mean? You're like, I feel like your definition is a little limited here.

Linda 31:20

Yeah, yeah. Oh, so so upsetting. And all of them are just saying they're nodding, and I was just like, oh my God. You're like, anyone? Anyone? Nope. Nope, everyone's uh on board. Okay, great, good to know. Horrible, horrible advice. But I also think that fits in with what we're talking about around instinct injury. It's like when we're explicitly told, you know, be careful, go along, don't make it mad, don't do this, don't do that. You know, it's all about your safety. Well, I think it's, you know, we've been taught in a patriarchal culture that for women to stay small is to stay safe, to stay quiet is to stay safe, to smile is to stay safe, to appease is to stay safe. Like in order to be safe, we have to sacrifice the entirety of our being. Yes. And I think there's a really important point too that I don't hear made very often, which is that there isn't there is a cost to all of that that we see in women who end up being depressed, they end up having physical symptoms, they end up being ill. There there is a cost to overriding your body constantly and to overriding your sense of what's right for you. It it shows up somewhere else. It doesn't just go away.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

No.

Keeping Boundaries When Others Push Back

Linda 32:48

I remember in, I think uh it was a book, one of Gabra Mate's books, I can't remember what it was called. Uh, he might have written about it in several of his books, but how people pleasing and saying yes is linked to higher incidences of cancer. Oh, I'm not surprised. You know, because it is there is this just self-abnegation and self-sacrifice. And yeah, it's there is a very real, there's so many caught like costs. There's the emotional costs, there's the physical costs, there's all these different ways that it shows up um yeah, in our lives and hampers us from doing the things we want to do, having the relationships that we want to have, because we're not really in them. That was one of the things that I would always, you know, tell my clients when they were having these, you know, issues with people pleasing, is like the reason we oftentimes will please is because we want to preserve a relationship. Yep. But you can't have an actual relationship if you're not in it. Yes. It's you have you have the facade of a relationship. Yes. But it will never be fulfilling because you're not in it. It's not you. You're just a version of you that's of service to someone else. It doesn't make any sense. But that's what we do. It's like we cut off our nose despite our face. Yeah. And I I tell clients that if you're saying yes because you don't want to rock the boat, you're in somebody else's boat. I love that. It's, you know, you're not you're not the captain of your own ship if you're doing that. And and so it's the same, exactly the same thing you're saying, just in different words. I love that metaphor though. I love that image because it's so true. Yeah. You're in somebody else's boat because and you're that idea of I'm not gonna rock the boat because I'm trying to preserve this relationship, it's exactly what you just said. And and I think there can be a huge misunderstanding too in relationships where, you know, like relationships can go through cycles, um, especially in abusive relationships or semi-abusive relationships. And there's a good period, right? There's a nice period, there's a period where you're getting along, where it feels good, where you, you know, you you feel like you're loved and cared about and all of that. And then, you know, it cycles into something else. We have a tendency to think that's the relationship. The good part is the relationship. And all the other cycles are just somehow getting away from the relationship. And we keep thinking we want to get back to the relationship, but no, it's all the relationship. The whole thing is the relationship.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Yeah.

Linda 35:18

And you can't with unless somebody's really work willing to work on it and change it, that's what you're always gonna have. You're always gonna have all of that. And people will say when I talk about this with them, but at the beginning, well, yeah, we can't in the very beginning, everybody's on their best behavior.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Yeah, their true self hasn't really had a the has not really surfaced fully yet.

Linda 35:40

Yeah. Yeah. And so when you do see somebody react to a no or to anything where they're not getting their own way, and it's problematic, pay attention to that because that is a part of who they are, and therefore that is going to be a part of your relationship. And I know it's painful, but it's true. And I and I know Linda and I've talked about this before, and I may have said this here, but back when I was dating, I purposely, with every single guy I went out with, even if I only saw them once, would find a way to say no to something that they asked me. Um, or I would, I would do some, I would assert something in the conversation that might not be pleasing to them just to watch and see how they would react. So genius. Can we just tell all the the all the women who are out in the dating world? That feels so genius because it's and it's the opposite, it's the direct opposite of what we're taught. And it it is this way of kind of like stirring the pot a little to see how how do you react in this time? Like when we're auditioning somebody, this is really important information. Yes. Can you handle me asserting myself in this? Can you handle me having a difference of opinion, a different different preference of not wanting what you want? Like what is the reaction here? Can you handle me putting down a boundary? Can you yeah? I feel like this. Oh my gosh, I know we're coming up towards the end of our time, but this feels so related to what we were talking about. I think before we hit record, um that which is what happens. We have a whole conversation about the conversation that we're about to do. And then we're like, we should be hitting record right now. Damn it. That was really good. Um that I think that that is the beauty of dating as a grown adult, mature woman. Yes. And I think part of the part of it is that like when we're younger, we we don't have that same capacity. And because we very rarely have had role models saying that, like telling, can you imagine saying that to a woman who's like 22, you know, and in that full, like doe-eyed all I want, you know, and I can I say this for myself. Like there are so many things that I put up with, okay, and that, you know, like that I was like, oh, because I was so wanting to be approved of and wanted, and you know, because that's what patriarchy says. Like as a as a young woman, that is that is the gold. It's the ultimate. That's the ultimate. You're in college to get your MRS, you know. Exactly, exactly. It was like, and and so you put up with all of this shit. And I think that, you know, this is why we need women as we come into midlife and the crone years, like to stand up and spread the gospel to the younger ones that you don't need to make yourself smaller or appease in order to find somebody who loves you. Because in that way, they're not actually gonna love you. Like they're gonna love an idea of you, they love a projection of their own idealized version of you that you're then taking on and trying to perform. Yeah, or they're seeking a woman appliance. It's like they want somebody who's going to perform, just exactly as you said, the tasks of life that women are expected to perform and to be pleasing.

SPEAKER_03 39:18

Yeah.

Closing Reflections: A Faithful Life And True Yes

Linda 39:18

And that's certainly not what I'm looking for at this stage of my life. No. No. And I think it's, you know, I've I've told this story. It's like there can be on, I think on the podcast before about my uh my foray into fantasy football when I first started dating Eric because that was I was 27 when we met, and I was very much still in that. And so I was like, I'm gonna be the cool girl who really likes football. And he loved fantasy football. So I like set up my own team and all this shit. And I think it lasted like a season or two, and then I was like, I finally had to come clean when I forgot to put in a quarterback and lost, and he was like, Oh, but you had to do this. And I was like, I fucking hate this shit. I don't want to do this anymore. And so there is like, it's also there can be the possibility of growth in relationship as long, you know, there it depends on the relationship, of course. But it's like I've become more and more of myself with my husband as time goes on and revealed over time more aspects of myself and vice versa. And there's real, there's a real beauty in that. But you also need somebody who's who's there for that, you know what I mean? Like, oh yeah, yeah. Some people are like, this is not who I married. Right. You know, you were supposed to dress nicely and you know, wear heels and like fantasy football. Right. Well, I recently told my partner that I had made a decision that impacted him, and so I wanted to inform him that I had decided I was gonna be really careful about when I say our things are okay or or they're fine. I have a tendency to say, oh, that's fine. This that's fine. And then later look back and be like, oh, you know, that's really not okay. And and it's so I just said, so from now on, I'm gonna be really careful about when I say things are okay or when they're fine. And I I might say it and then take it back. So I'm just telling you that this is a growth edge for me. This is what I'm working on, and it's definitely gonna impact you. So that's why I'm informing you. And he was like, Great, do it. I think that's a wonderful idea. I love that. Oh, yes. And oh my god, I just when you said that, I was that is I think that's part of it is I do the same thing and we let things roll off our back. Yep. We just kind of because I I probably comes from the same tendencies or like, eh, this is it big enough to bring up it doesn't matter, it's not that big a deal. It doesn't matter. And I mean, this would be way worse when I was younger because I would just let everything roll off my back. And then it would be like the straw that broke the camel's back, and then it would be a torrent of like, well, and two weeks ago you did this and this and this, because it was still in there. It didn't actually roll off my back. I just packed it back there and didn't look at it. Exactly. Exactly. And I didn't even really realize how much of a habit it was until one time one of my kids got a wooden ring stuck on her finger and like a it was like like a craft ring kind of thing. It wasn't like a finger ring, it wasn't meant to be on a finger. But anyway, and one of the kids tried to get it off a finger before they told me, and they one of the things they did was soak it in water. Yeah, like exactly now, which you should do. But anyway, I was in the bathroom with the kids trying to figure this out, and my husband called out, my former husband called out to me, is everything okay? Is everything fine? That's what he said. And I said, No, it's not. And his response was, Oh, Laura always says, Everything's fine. This must be a big problem. So he came in to see, and and it was, and he had a tiny little saw and he he got it off without hurting anybody, and it was great. But yeah, but he repeated that to me a few times. He's like, Yeah, I knew it must be a problem because you always say everything is fine. And I was like, Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

You're like, oh shit, I do do that, don't I?

Linda 43:10

And that was yes, I mean, that kid just turned 23. So I'm it's still an issue for me. And but I'm in a relationship now where it's safer to truly be me and to truly speak up. And I want to use that to I want to take that in and I want to be more me. Yes. And so that's part of what I'm doing. Yes. And I feel like we are just right on time in terms of all the astrology because we just had two planets that moved into Aries. Saturn moved into Aries today on our recording day, and Neptune moved into Aries, I think on Laura's birthday, just a few weeks ago. And so there is this energy really of self assertion. And I think, especially as women, where we have been taught to preserve relationships, particularly with men, by disappearing. Into them, there is such potency and power, I think, that comes from remembering how to assert ourselves and to be in relationship with one another in ways that support that so that we can practice. Um, because we all need the practice, it's hard. There's a whole nervous system response that happens, you know. It's like so much comes up, especially at the beginning. I mean, goodness gracious, things that when I was first coming through this practice like 10 years ago, I mean, I could not say no to my gardener. Right, I remember that. Who would just show up? Willy-nilly. I drove that man 40 minutes to the doctor. And I was sitting in traffic going, Linda, what in the hell are you doing? Why did you drag this man that you really actually don't like at all to the doctor? Because I could not say no. It would not have been kind. Oh man, yeah, that's something else. Yeah, I'm so proud of you that you've come so far with being able to say no. And you bring up a really important point, which is I mean, it's I I think, yeah, this is related to what I was actually thinking a minute ago, which is this is really hard to do in isolation. So if you are out there listening and you're like, yes, I absolutely need to learn to say no, I need to practice this, find somebody to support you, whether it's a girlfriend, whether it's you know, your sister, you know, whether you start a group of women, whether you come to a coach or a therapist, please find somebody to support you because it's not just it isn't you say no and it's done. There's a whole process that happens. You have another person's reaction. You have to actually keep the no, which is the hardest part. It's not so much saying it. It's like when you set a boundary, that's not the hard part. The hard part is what do you do when someone tries to cross the boundary, which they inevitably do?

SPEAKER_03 45:59

Yeah.

Linda 46:00

And it's really helpful to have somebody else to talk to so that somebody else who can talk you through it, who can hear it, who can support you, who can reflect back to you the growth that they're seeing and also just how freaking hard it is. Because otherwise it's almost impossible.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

Yeah.

Linda 46:18

Yeah. I think that's such a good point. And I feel like from kind of a nervous system, creaturely perspective, too, there can be, you know, as we were talking about, like there is appeasement, has we've been taught that that is a sense of safety. So saying a no can send up a lot of danger signals in our bodies and can really send us into like an inner tumultuous state. And so I think having somebody else that is there with you and supporting you also returns us to the sense of safety that it's like, oh, I said no, and like the world didn't end, nothing horrible happened, and I can still be like I can return to this safe space and be held and process what happened. And you know, like that, that too, I think is so in addition to everything that you said. It's like all the ways that yes, we we need we need one another to come back home to this part of ourselves. Yes, absolutely. I'll just end with one quick story, which is that when I was a kid, my dad used to tell me all the time if somebody bothers you, if they try to hurt you, you just kick them in the shins. So my dad was very much the opposite of my mom in terms of, you know, my mom taught taught me, told me to always be safe, all that stuff. This is what my dad told me. So Donald Salter, I can't remember what he did, but we were like seven years old and he did something. So I kicked him in the shins. Well, my dad left out part of the story when he told me this is that they might kick you back, which is what Donald did. He kicked me back in the shins, you know. Of course he did, right? But my dad left that out. I was so shocked that somebody would kick me back that I didn't even know what to do with myself. And so I think that's the other reason to have somebody in your life that you're processing this stuff with, because sometimes people do kick back. Yeah, and sometimes you need somebody to talk to because it doesn't mean you did anything wrong necessarily.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

Yeah.

Linda 48:18

And you might need to decide how to move forward with that, or just even to have somebody to process whatever's happening around it. Um, because it can feel pretty lonely to be like, but wait a minute.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

Wait, that wasn't what was supposed to happen. No one told me this part. Nobody told me.

Linda 48:37

Oh my gosh. I want to add before we go. I love this. This is a quote I've been re-rereading Anam Kara, a book of Celtic Wisdom by John O'Donohue. And it feels this part I underlined earlier in terms of this saying no. It says, to remain faithful to your life requires commitment and vision that must be constantly renewed. To remain faithful to your life requires commitment and vision that must be constantly renewed. And I think that that is what the no allows us to be is to be faithful to our own lives. Absolutely. It also a no allows a yes to really be a yes.

unknown 49:20

Yeah.

Linda 49:22

Yeah, there is no real yes without a no. There isn't. And and to be faithful to our own lives, we need to really say yes to them.

unknown 49:29

Yeah.

Linda 49:31

I feel like that could be a whole other podcast. I think so too. Add it to the list. We'll add it to the list. All right. Well, thank you, dear listeners, for tuning in. Yep. Until next time. Until next time.