Choosing Mutuality Over Metrics: Rethinking Wealth

Want to know why a bigger bank balance can calm your nervous system yet still leave you restless? We dig into the messy, honest truth: money absolutely fixes spreadsheet problems, while falling short on the deeper needs that make life feel rich. Together we unpack how women are taught to restrict instead of invest, to overgive instead of receive, and to measure worth by sacrifice rather than sovereignty. This tension shapes careers, relationships, and whether or not we have the ability to walk away from what harms us.

If this episode resonates, follow the show, share with a friend who’s rethinking money, and leave a quick review to help others find these conversations.

Book mentioned: The Moneyless Man: A Year of Freeconomic Living by Mark Boyle

Transcript

Welcome And Mutual Appreciation

Linda 0:02

Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode three, season five of the Woman Uncaged podcast. My name is Linda Katz, and I'm here with my beloved bestie feminist co-conspirator, all-around wonderful human, Ms. Laura Gates Lepton. So wonderful to be here with you today, Laura. Thank you, Linda. And for those of you who are unfamiliar, if this is one of your first Woman Uncaged podcast listens, if you don't know Laura, she is a wonderful life and money coach who helps women to step into our power without losing the sense of who we are, without overriding our emotions, without overriding our ethics, and allowing our nervous systems to expand to take in the goodness of life. And Laura has such a wonderful way of being able to do that, of asking the really deep questions, holding such a loving, caring space for the answers that arise, and just being such a powerful stand for all of the people and the women in her life. And I'm so grateful to be part of your circle and to have you in my life. And it's so wonderful to be here, Laura. Thank you, Linda. Thank you. I don't know what I would do without you in my circle. For those of you who might not know Linda, she is an incredible coach. And I can speak to that specifically because she was my coach. And you know, just what we did together was such a beautiful piece of work. And it's largely because there's so much depth and wisdom to this woman sitting across to me right here. Um and she just holds such a beautiful space when you're with her. As a friend or as a client, she is so attuned. And the quality of listening that comes from Linda is astonishing to me. I have such a high standard for people being good listeners because most of my friends are therapists, you know. And so most of my friends are very good listeners. And Linda's right at the top of the list. Um, because she's just she listens in that beautiful way that's not just to what you're saying, but to everything. She hears it all and she hears what's underneath what's being said and reflects that back in such a beautiful way. And I've been blessed to experience that over and over again for what, about six years now.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

I know, which is amazing. Pretty awesome.

Money Solves Spreadsheets, Not Feelings

Linda 2:31

I know. Yeah, she's also a dream whisperer. So if you ever have a dream where you're like, man, especially recurring dreams, because I I've had them and it's been such a joy to be able to discuss those with Linda over and over and over again as they have taken shape and changed and morphed and then disappeared. Um, it's just been so fun and so illuminating to have that and have Linda be able to give me some reflections and guidance and deepen the meaning. She sees so much more than I do when we talk about dreams. Um and I just love that I have that and have her with me to do that. And Linda, it's always a joy to be here with you. I'm so glad we're here today. Me too. Me too. What are we gonna be diving into today? Well, yesterday I had a session with a client, a very lovely, wonderful client that I've worked with for the last two and a half years. It was her final session, which is always a little like, no. It's like a graduation.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

You're like, oh, you can't go, I'll miss you.

Linda 3:39

Um, and she's also one of our listeners. So hey, if you're listening, hi. Um and we were having a conversation about money and about her experience with working with me over the last two and a half years. And she said a couple of things that A, I thought were brilliant. Um, but B made me think after our session, I really started thinking about them and I ended up boxing Linda about them. And so we were chatting back and forth and decided it'd be fun just to talk about it on the podcast. And basically, what had come up in the session is that she was talking about how like her growth with money over the last two and a half years, and she was talking about how, you know, people say money, having more money can't solve your problems, money can't solve problems. And she was saying how she realized, like, that's not true. Um, there are some problems money absolutely can't solve. And she basically said, you know, people, we tend to think of it. I wrote it down, these exact words she used. We tend to think of money as a quantifiable means of commerce, but really it's something that's really emotional. But when we the way we talk about in our society, we we take out the emotion. We act like it's just a spreadsheet, right? It's just the numbers on the spreadsheet. And she was saying that she had come to see that having more money can fix the problems of the spreadsheet, you know, it can fix the things you can't afford. It can, if you can't feed your kids and you get more money, you can feed your kids. You know, you can buy shoes that you need to buy, you can fix your car, you can pay your rent, you can, you know, there are a lot of things that money does accomplish, but it doesn't necessarily make people happier unless it increases your quality of life, like it does when you can fill those slots in the spreadsheet with, you know, in the black.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Yes.

Linda 5:14

But it doesn't, it doesn't fix things that we often task it with. Emotional tasks, like just generally making us happy. Like I when I hit six figures, I'm gonna be so happy. And I see over and over again people, it's great when people make meet that goal, it's exciting, but it does not create lasting happiness. Um, and so that's what we were talking about yesterday. And then I was talking with Linda after, and we were just saying how like much of what the dictates our society shares, especially toward women, there's so much more nuance to it. You know, the money won't make you happy. There's so much more nuance to that than black or white. And and for women in particular, because we're we're put in this weird position of not like we're not taught how to be breadwinners, we're not taught how to center money in our lives, really. It's and we're not supposed to ask for it, we're not supposed to charge for our services, we're supposed to give everything away. And yet we're looked down upon if we can't take care of ourselves. There's that too. And so it's just all this like, I don't even know what kind of topic this is, Lyndon. It's just kind of the muck of what we're handed as women when it comes to money and other things. There are other things too. But anyway, what do you say in response to that big ball I just created? A big ball of words. I feel like there's so many things that we can, so many threads that we can pull at and and untangle. And I feel like part of it, I love what your clients said about uh how money can solve the problems of the spreadsheet. And I think that that is so apt. And I think part of the reason that I wonder if men are often sold that same, like, well, money can't buy you happiness to the same degree or take it in to the same degree that women do. Um because then it's like that's not what you're seeking. So it's like again, it is that uh mixed messaging, I think that we receive. And there are certain things that we need and want money for. And when I think some of those emotional and societal and other things come in the way of the things that we're taught, like, oh, you're you're you're not supposed to want money, but you are supposed to take care of yourself. And it makes it really difficult to have a clean and clear relationship with money in our lives. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I just read a book when I back when I had the flu a few weeks ago. Um, I can't remember the name. I think it's called The Moneyless Man. I'll have to look it up.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

I remember you telling me about this.

Linda 8:01

Yes. And it was this book about this man who in the UK who lived without money for a year. Like for a whole year, he lived without money. And it was about how he managed that and how hard it was, and how he had to rely a lot upon other people. And he had really specific rules around it. Um, and just you know, it was eye-opening because when you think about like how much everything we do requires money.

unknown 8:25

Yes.

Mixed Messages Women Get About Wealth

Linda 8:26

You know, it's hard to have a day where you're not actually spending anything. And even if you're not spending anything in the background, you're probably still spending something, right? I mean, we pay a mortgage or you pay your rent, and it's like you might pay it on one. I'm using utilities right now. Exactly. It's like you're gonna pay it once a month, but that is still accruing in the background. Yes, and yeah, it's um it's kind of interesting because I feel like we were talking about another topic, and I feel like they actually dovetail together in a lot of ways um because of that, where it's like even if we want to move out of, I was talking with my massage therapist about this yesterday, and she, you know, is wants to get out of this kind of extractive capitalist system as much as she can. And I think that's such a worthy endeavor. Me too. And I think that in a certain way, that might be what we're gonna be moving towards in some way, shape, or form with AI, with kind of, you know, the systems, people divesting from the systems, them not holding the same, like the large-scale centralized systems holding the same power or prestige or trust in the public imagination. Um, and at the same time, it's like, but there are so many ways that I'm like, but I'm still beholden to this system. Like, I cannot grow all my own food. I do not have a network of people with whom I'm trading goods and services. Even if I want to like start knitting, I have to go buy the yarn. You know, it's like I'm not I don't have my own sheep that I'm then gonna be spinning the wool and doing all the things, you know. And and that's not even to say like what we were just talking about, like having a home or an apartment, paying utilities, having gas and electricity and internet. Um, there are certain things like in this society, money is necessary. And I think that when we say those things like money can't buy happiness, it's also a way to shame women from wanting to have it, like to say, like it's not gonna solve these your problems. And it's like there are many problems it will not solve, and then there are a great many problems that it will solve. Yes. If you know, and especially I think as women having that level, as we've spoken about before, having that ability to have that freedom to walk away from situations that are not good for us without money. That makes it very, very difficult. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I've heard so many stories from women who've talked about their mothers um getting divorced, being in unhappy marriages and getting divorced, and ending up in another one really quickly because they couldn't support themselves.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Yeah.

Linda 11:08

Like the means of support is marriage. Yep. And in one case, one woman was telling me, Yeah, her mom's done it three times. And not necessarily happy marriages. They're not bad people that she's married necessarily, but she's not really happy. And I would like having to I mean, I kind of think of it as like putting yourself in the in the place of being like an indentured servant, you know, it's like the cooking and cleaning and doing all these things in order to earn their keep, basically, um, in an unhappy situation. And I don't want that for anybody. So yeah, money, I think money is really important in that sense, but men are taught to invest and women are taught to uh restrict. We are taught to, you know, don't buy that latte, you know, no avocado toast, you know, it's like the most ridiculous things, but you know, to to to scrimp and to cut back and to yeah, just to to not spend and not, you know, and and that's supposed to be our way of getting through without a whole lot of money, but even it's like diet culture, it's just it's financial diet culture. Yeah. It's the belief that what women are buying for ourselves is also frivolous, right? That it's not it's somehow not important, it's silly, like, oh, your latte, you know, it's like these silly little desires of your life versus, you know, I'm gonna invest my money and you know, do these big important things that I think that men are typically taught. And I think when you said that, like the means of support is marriage, I do think that there is like in some way that institution of the you know, patriarchy wants to keep it that way, right? As we've been speaking about on this podcast, it's we we're the quiet part is being said out loud by many, many more people now that if we take away women's choices and we take away other means of support, then women have no choice but to have, like you were saying, you know, like that necessity of going from one unhappy marriage to another. Yeah. And I think that sadly that's probably part of it. I think it is. I think it is. I mean, we've seen guys, these guys in politics who've introduced measures that make it harder to get divorced because their wives have left them and they don't they don't think it's right that they have the right to do that. And so they want to take away the right for women to leave marriages.

unknown 13:44

Yeah.

Life Without Money And System Realities

Linda 13:44

It's it's instead of leveling up, instead of being like, well, if women aren't marrying now as you know, younger women aren't marrying as much as the previous generations, they're waiting longer to get married if they're marrying at all. Instead of thinking, well, we need to make it more attractive, we need to level up, we need to see what they want, we need to change the shapes of relationships. No, it's just we'll force them to.

SPEAKER_03 14:08

Yeah.

Linda 14:09

We'll we'll create these conditions that force them to get married. It'll be really hard if they don't. Yeah. Yeah. And I would love to ask, so this was something you had brought up before we got on around safety nets. And that we don't have, especially here in the United States, we don't really have any kind of any kind of social safety nets. And then you said the safety net is women. I would love, I would love to hear you elaborate a little bit more on that too, and how that kind of how you see that interweaving um with this conversation. If you even look at what's happening here right now, where I am in the Twin Cities, with the families who don't are afraid to leave their homes because of ICE, the people who, the majority of the people, not everybody, but the majority of the people who are running the programs, who are doing the um uh mutual aid, are women. They're the ones who are you know gathering the food meals, gathering the foods, taking them out to people's homes, delivering them. They're it's on their backs pretty much that this is happening. I'm not saying men aren't giving money and men aren't participating. They definitely are, but every radio interview I've heard with anybody who's spearheading one of these kinds of um, I don't want to say programs, but you know, um what's a good word for it? But just just like an organization or events or efforts, efforts, yeah, to feed people, it's all it's all it's mostly women. And when you think about volunteers in this country for just about anything in the nonprofit world, it's mostly women. If you think about nonprofits, the people who work in nonprofits are mostly women, social workers, teachers, nurses, mostly women. We tend to be the people who clean up the messes, who are the are the nets for our neighbors, you know. It's like if something happens to the neighbors, who's baking a casserole? Yeah, you know, it's it and it's just and I I think the problem is we're becoming more and more reliant on that all the time. And I know from my work, and I'd love to hear this from your work with your clients, but one of the things I'm often asking my clients to do, especially at the beginning of our work, is to cut back on the volunteer work because they're overextending to the point where they can't support themselves because their time is just be given to everybody else. And it's not that there isn't an extreme need, there is. But in order There are many extreme needs. It's part of the problem. Yes. But when you really when you're looking at wanting to support yourself or needing to support yourself and your children, it's really important that you start there first. And I hate the oxygen mask metaphor, it drives me insane. Everybody uses it, so I'm not gonna use it. But you do need to shore up your own situation and then give from that place. It's a much different way of giving than it is to spread yourself so thin that you can't meet your own needs.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

Yes.

Linda 17:24

I see it over and over and over again. And and it's hard when we have that conversation sometimes because they will say, But I I don't know if anyone else will do it if I don't.

unknown 17:34

Yeah.

Safety Nets, Overgiving, And Burnout

Linda 17:34

There, I'm taking care of all of these needs in my community or in my family or in my neighborhood. Yeah. And it's like if we lived in a different world, that would be okay. Right? Like that's a sacred gift, I think, if we didn't have this also this simultaneous, like we're saying, need to actually be able to make money in order to take care of ourselves and to take care of our families. And to solve the problems and to solve it. Exactly. It's like those problems also exist. If those problems were not there, and maybe that's a utopian idea that I have, which I will completely claim, right? But let's say those problems weren't there, then I think it's a beautiful idea that we offer our services, you know, if if we derive it from it, meaning and other ways of filling our cup as well. But I think it because of so much of the messaging, and I think from my work too, it's where like that good girl messaging comes in that women are trained to be self-sacrificial. And that's what it means to be a good woman. And so I think that there's so many strands that get muddy around, oh, but am I being where is it generosity versus where is it overgiving? Or, you know, like it's it can be hard to parcel out am I doing this to be seen as good by sacrificing myself, or is this something that really actually fills me up because it gives me such deep meaning? And I think what you're saying is that even in the latter case, those very real spreadsheet problems might mean that you need to focus on those things first. And yes, you know, when you were saying that too, there's so many different things that kind of popped up in my mind. One, as we've spoken about a lot, it's like we have these big societal problems that fall on the shoulders of individuals in order to fix. So I hear that piece. I hear the piece of the invisible labor that so many women do just to make society go around. You know, like what was it in Iceland where like all women walked out of like doing any labor for a day or two just to prove the fucking point of like, yeah, let's make this invisible labor visible, yes, so that people can see what's happening. And then the third was just how systems of care, you know, it's it's an interesting thing because, and I would love your thoughts on this, because we talk a lot about the web. And in some way, these systems of care feel like the web. But there's there can be like a lack of reciprocity or there can be mutuality. Mutuality, right? And I think that sometimes that's also because the way that we are taught giving and receiving, it tends to be very hierarchical. It tends to be a a power-based dynamic, yes, rather than a love-based dynamic or an equality-based dynamic. So I don't know. Now I said a whole bunch of words. So I'm just gonna be like, I'm tossing you the ball, Laura. Which one do you want to pick up? I think, I think the fact that it's a power-based-based dynamic is part of the problem because this is one of the reasons why you have so many people who don't who are uncomfortable receiving, is because they see it they as a power-based dynamic. And so they don't want to be in the position of being the person to receive, you know, and I'm sure you have stories in your family. I definitely have them in mind of people who were too proud during the depression to accept government help um or help from their neighbors or whatever. And, you know, I've I have sat with people who said, you know, we almost starved because my father would not accept help. Like he was too proud. And, you know, it's just like that. It how's that work? You know? I know, I know. But I think that's one of the issues. Whereas when we talk about the web as we conceive of it, it really is it's it's mutuality, and it's not necessarily it's not uh quid pro quo. And it's not like you give to me, and therefore I have to give to you, but you give to me, and then I might give to somebody else, and they might give to somebody else. And there's this beautiful interweaving of giving and receiving and caring for each other and supporting each other. And it's not necessarily monetary at all. It could be all kinds of things. Um, but when you talk about the overgiving, a lot of the times it is like I have more or I think I do. I'm I perceive myself as having more than somebody else and I'm going to give to them to help them in whatever way. And I don't expect anything back, which is lovely. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not the same as what we talk about with the web. It doesn't have that mutuality. And and the other piece is that I can see myself as somebody who has more and therefore wants to give and I can be wrong about that. I can be wrong about how much I actually have to give in terms especially when I'm giving a lot financially or I'm giving up so much of my time I don't have time to provide for myself financially. This is what I see over and over again. And if you don't have some way of tracking it, if you don't have a spreadsheet or a budget, which I know these are dirty words, um then it can be hard to know. You know, it's like I personally use uh you need a budget software and I track all of my stuff and so and I have a category for giving and I'm very careful about making sure it's there and I give from that place. And in terms of my time my work stuff comes first and I'm happy to volunteer in lots of different ways and give in lots of different ways but I make sure that I'm meeting those needs first because I have to be able to support myself.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

Yeah.

Linda 23:43

Yeah. Well I feel like there's oh there's so many pieces here like I think I wonder if if this resonates for you. This is something that I would uh sometimes talk to my clients about which is that sometimes when we're in that space of just overgiving because we've said it's like there is this inherent like power dynamic oftentimes in the way that we are taught or the way that it's modeled to us. And so if we are not also in some way receiving we think that we're like being really good and really generous but we're actually maintaining a position of power and we're neglecting our own vulnerability like somewhere deep inside there's like yeah but I that's I'm that I don't need that. And and it's underneath it's like I'm too good for that. Like I'm I'm not going to receive anything I'm the one who gives right I'm the one who bestows and so it can even be this identity shift that happens and a lot of shadow work that happens when we have to admit like begin to untangle that and see how oh am I is there really such a purity of heart that I'm I'm coming to this from and if I'm not actually able to acknowledge my own needs and to be able to ask for help when needed what do I make if if that's if I'm too good for that or I don't need that what do I make that mean about the people that I give to yeah you're like oh but that's not too good for them.

Power Dynamics In Giving And Receiving

SPEAKER_01 25:19

You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's it's it that one I know I have mentioned next to Class and they're like oh shit you know because it's it it crumbles this really beautiful self-image that we've spent so long cultivating that we're like no I'm just such a good person.

Linda 25:38

And not to say that it's not but it can also again because what you were saying like these making those power dynamics visible. And I think the way that you differentiated that from how we speak about the web is really important. I was doing a card reading for a friend of mine who also occasionally listens to the podcast. So hello you know who you are I know who you are hello with my new um I was gifted a the witches of the winter oracle or something and one of the cards is the for anyone who follows tarot the Six of Pentacles and which is very much about kind of giving and receiving resource like resources sometimes money like food tangible resources. And in the most famous version of the tarot deck the Smithrider weight deck it's kind of like somebody giving you know like this man standing up tall and I think people are on their knees like begging and he's like you know giving out the coins like from this position of power. And I think that's what we tend to think of it as is that hierarchical dynamic. And in this deck it's a picture of two women out in the forest with this giant like vat of soup cooking over an open fire. And you can sense that it's like oh but they're there's not this neat delineation of giving and receiving like each one is bringing maybe the things that they have to add to the soup. They might be bringing their you know expertise on how to make the soup. They might be tending the fire they're both like they're going to eat the soup. They're going to give the soup away like there's just this there is more of a reciprocity and a mutuality and you can like both of us were actually moved to tears just by the image on the card because it felt so different from what we are usually taught which is that very hard hierarchical power dynamic that comes with this um that I think makes it I think that makes it difficult too because for many of us we don't want like we've talked about we don't want to feel like we have power over necessarily and you don't want to feel like somebody has power over you which again makes the whole money thing there's just so many strands that get put in there that I don't think really need to be there. It's just the way that it's been set up. Yeah I agree. And I think the fact that at least most men I know have a really hard time asking for help also plays into this too that not necessarily from their the people they're married to. And I'd be like we need to get to our mechanic because our car is there. I'm going to ask our neighbors if they would either drive us there or if we could borrow their car. And he's like oh you know I don't we can rent a car I'm like it's going to cost a hundred dollars like why let me just ask you know all they can they can say no or whatever. I asked and they said yes. You know things like that where it's just like to me it's second nature to think who in my circle might be able to assist with whatever this issue is that I'm having and to to ask right not to think like oh I have to figure out a way to solve this without bothering anybody else which is how I most of the men I've known has been their orientation. 100% a friend of mine a friend of mine her husband died because he wouldn't call anybody to ask for a ride home. It was a really cold night and he he died walking home. And I think about that I know it's incredibly sad I think about that fairly often because it's so symbolic of like just that you know the lone wolf trying to make it home and on his own and he didn't when there were any number of people who probably could have helped him you know and I just think that the the web too is it's it's that it's also symbolic of women like in an interdependence among women not just women there are men in the web too but you know helping each other.

unknown 30:05

Yeah.

The Web: Mutuality Over Transaction

Linda 30:05

And you know my housemate Mandy I've talked with you about this Linda I can't remember if we've ever talked about on the podcast but one of the things I loved about her my housemate in Cincinnati was she had this incredible network and she told me that whenever I have a problem the first thing I think is who in my network might help me solve this. And she had this amazing amazing social network that she had very purposefully built. Yeah and lovely people I got to meet so many of them and I thought wow you know that's the way to live yes and I think there's an interesting piece here too which is that like you know when you were talking about your ex-husband being like oh we can we'll just rent a car and you know spend however much money is that so much becomes purely transactional when we are afraid to have those relationships of interdependence. It's like it feels cleaner to be like I'll just pay someone to do it for me to help me with it. And there's a poverty in that oh yes and I think that's what we see now so often you know like we were joking I may have shared this on the podcast before but like with the the drones you know we get the Amazon drones now luckily not very often they've kind of slowed down after the holidays but you know Eric my husband was joking he's like if you need something that bad just tell me what it is and I'll run to the store and I'll get it for you you know the store is three minutes away I'll just go get it for you. But I think that there was a time where that was the norm. You know like the whole thing about like borrowing a cup of sugar. No one borrows a cup of sugar you just fucking order it on Amazon and it's drone dropped in your backyard in 40 minutes. But then what happens instead is that we don't know our neighbors we don't have this sense of community and I think that's part of the reason that leads also to this feeling of not being safe. You know I'm this is the this is a tangent but you know like when we walk in our neighborhood oftentimes we'll find everyone's got like cameras everywhere like every freaking there are motion detector lights there are cameras like in the alleyway there's cameras around the fence there's the ring camera there's just and then there's cameras that whistle at you if you get too close. And I'm like to me that is the impoverished version of safety rather than having that sense of community that comes from knocking on your neighbor's door and being like our car ran out of gas or it died. Is there any way that you could give us a ride to the gas station or whatever it is that you're going that cements those community ties, which is what, as we all know is what really leads to safety is being in groups of other humans that we know and care about. No I and I think it's a lost art is what I think. And I also think we can be almost suspicious of people who haven't lost the art um I'm just thinking about one time not too long ago uh when I was back in New York and my mom said something like wow people do a lot for you and I said I do a lot for other people it goes both ways you know but the way she said it was almost like how do you manipulate that?

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Wow.

Linda 33:35

She didn't those weren't her words but it was just the way she said yeah you can you can read underneath that yeah yeah yeah and then also here in this community that I'm new to recently you know everyone knows I did a lot of pet sitting over the last year I had a box of like dog you know poop bags um and I thought I'm not gonna need these for a while and so I asked I saw my neighbor out with her dog the other day and so I said do you use poop bags would you I have a box of them would you like them and she was said oh I'd love them she said and just let me know how much I owe you and I was like oh no no I'm just gonna give them to you I'm sure it's like yeah I don't need them they're just taking up space I'd love to have you use them and I'll put them by your door and so I did but you know it's I and she seemed very perplexed.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

I didn't want her to pay me for them I wasn't saying can I sell you this box you're like I have extra poop bags I have no dog so I don't need these I have a very small space I'm living in I don't need extra things sitting around and I I would love for her to have them and I'd love to build a connection with her.

Community Ties Versus Surveillance Culture

Linda 34:37

She seems like a nice person. You know no strings of course but I just you know I thought it'd be great if she had them um but I I I think sometimes we have lost that a little bit so it seems weird when somebody's just randomly offering us something and not wanting what are the things what do they want right it's it's the simplicity of it right and I think that's where kind of like kind of swing it back around to the money piece is that I think that money can almost become instead of being symbolic of relationship or it can become a stand-in for relationship. Like I'm just gonna pay you for them so then I never have to think about it again. I know that we're even Steven like I feel no sense of guilt right like it or obligation or obligation to like repay you in some way. And I think that yeah there just it's there's an impoverishment to that I think that there is um there is something that we lose with that I think did I I might have shared this story. I think I shared it with you Laura of watching somebody who was living in Sweden and came from uh he was a Pacific Islander I think uh and he was describing just the difference of his culture and the Swedish culture and gave a story of how he and his partner went to his home and asked one of the fishermen that was there like when there he was going out to go fishing that day like oh if you catch something you know can you if you get like an extra fish could we have some of it and the man came back and gave him like an entire I think it was like a tuna or something. And his wife who was Swedish or his partner was Swedish was like that guy's got he's giving the whole fish and there was no expectation of payment there was nothing because he was like oh well this is nature gifted me with this and now I'm gifting it with you and the guy who was he was like and then you know here in Sweden we like Venmo each other for a Coke. Yes and it's that I'm like yes oh and it just struck me right in the heart because I was like that's exactly what happens yes and then we don't have these community ties because you're like oh you owe me 350 you know yeah yeah yeah a friend was just telling me the other day about sending her one of her kids off to a um well actually it was a friend she was talking about a friend who that another family invited the their friend's child to go on vacation with them and so the family said yes and sent the kid off on vacation with spending money and stuff but and then after the vacation they got an itemized bill from the family. Wow yeah okay interesting yeah and and I I that's where I feel like we've lost something like my my parents were very generous and they would often take other kids on vacation with us when we go and they never asked anybody for anything. Like it just was it they wouldn't have invited somebody if they couldn't have afforded to pay for them right to host them. You know to me it's like having somebody over to your house for dinner and then presenting them with a pill. Great so um your portion how much wine did you have of you had two glasses oh let me let me fix this yeah I went out to dinner the other night with a group of women and I didn't know how we were going to do the check but like three of three of the women ordered appetizers for the table and then we all had our entrees and we all had wine um and then we went up to cash register to check out was individual checks and just three of the women just picked up the appetizers and it's like does anyone want me to chip and they're like no no no you can get next time or whatever. It doesn't matter and I just so prefer that over the nickel and diming. Yes you know it's yeah and I I really I love reciprocity. I think it's a really beautiful thing in our human culture but I I never want it to be like a scoreboard. No you know I don't think it is transactional and I can't exactly define how it's not meant to be that way but I'm like something deep within me is like oh that tit for tat doesn't feel like reciprocity like the scoreboard does not feel like reciprocity because it doesn't feel like it comes from a place of trust or love or flow it it feels very rigid and like well I'm gonna make sure that if I give I'm gonna get the same back. Yes. Or or more likely if you if you give something to me I'm gonna make sure I give you something back that's of equal value because I don't want to be seen as somebody who's a taker or you know whatever that is. And I also really appreciate the recognition that people are in different places at different times. I have so many friends who do not have children who are older than I am who have been so generous with me and my family could make me cry when times when I couldn't you know I could never have paid them back. I couldn't have it just wouldn't be possible but they because they loved me and loved my kids they were just super generous you know like to a friend who taught writing saying please send your daughter to my class I know it's expensive. You don't have to pay for it I just want her in the class she'll be she's a role model for everybody else and she's a delight and you know I just love to have her in the class things like that where it's just like you know you just think oh thank you so much there's no way I can express how much I this means to me and I can there's no way I can pay you back. So I'm just gonna accept it and thank you with love, you know? Yeah. And those are like those those are the relationships that are so nourishing for both parties. You know what I mean? Like and then in a different season of life that person might be in need of that you know like to me that is where my part of like there's like a trust in the universe that like somehow it comes back around and like when we care for others we're going to be cared for in return when we need it if we're willing to accept it when it's not that hierarchical locked dynamic. Yeah well it's that that same friend was named poet laureate for the county and when she was being inducted at the county legislature meeting I it was a horrible weather horrible cold awful weather it's kind of late in the evening after a very long day but I took my kids we will celebrate the shit out of you. Yes we were there to watch her be sworn in to watch the whole thing and it actually was really cool. I didn't know what the process was yeah and she read one of her poems which I'd heard before but and it was a long kind of story poem you know and that the kids hadn't heard it though and it was just it was such a it was like a magical night really um and she was so appreciative that we were there and that we came out on this in this horrible weather to watch her be inducted and so you know that's it's giving on a totally different level. Yeah but that's what I mean by reciprocity. Yeah yeah I feel like this there's so we I mean I know we've gone on a winding path today which is our usual modus operandi but it's just I f I find it really intriguing too that we started off talking about the spreadsheet but just naturally we evolved beyond it in our conversation. And I think that there's a reason for that you know it's like we all know we have the things on the spreadsheet like those are real we all need to take care of them in some way there is nothing bad about prioritizing those things and there is something ineffable I feel like just in our conversation you can feel the emotion the tenderness the the beauty of connection that can never be even remotely captured on the spreadsheet like I feel no correction like connection with my mortgage company I feel a connection with my home I do not feel a connection with my mortgage company or my bank or you know like and so there's just yeah there's something about that I think that feels important. Yeah I'm all for putting things in your spreadsheet that you do feel a connection with I mean I do I have a freedom column in my my budget. Love it you know um I yeah I've often had fuck you money in my budget. That Eric always says he's like you always need fuck you money like that's what that's one of his things that he's always said you've got to have that.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

So you can walk away from something that's not working. That feels like the freedom that feels like the freedom category.

Linda 43:28

Yeah so I'm all for having things that we oh hi Ersi. I all you know I'm all for that the having things in your spreadsheet you have connections with but I I think the way a lot of this is related though is that if you're taking care of the things on the spreadsheet then you have the capacity to be your full beautiful shiny self in the web yeah and to give to other people from a place of knowing that you're not bankrupting yourself.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Yeah.

Linda 43:55

And I think that's the part that we don't talk about.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Yeah.

Linda 44:00

Is that yeah, that there are problems in the spreadsheet that need to be solved. And when they are solved in a way that's ongoing so that you're taking care of yourself.

Reciprocity Without The Scoreboard

SPEAKER_01 44:09

It's not usually a one and done, unfortunately. I keep hoping for that. Like, where is my pot of gold that just fell from the sky? No, it's not coming. I'm set for life.

Linda 44:19

Exactly. Um, but then but once we've done that though, then we we're free to give in lots of great ways. That does it doesn't mean everybody's like relying on us, like in the sense of like, you know, this big thing you're lugging around on your back. Yeah, it's more the joy of giving and receiving and taking care of each other.

unknown 44:41

Yeah.

Linda 44:42

It comes, I think that feels really important too, that it's this, it's like the energy with which we're doing it. Because I think if we have a difficulty in taking care of our own basic needs, for most of us, maybe not all of us, but for many of us, I think it results in some anxiety. Uh and then that that I think is a clue, right? Because then it's like we're giving to others as almost like a way to appease our anxiety. Um, but it's it's tapped in there, right? Versus this like coming from a state of connection and joy and ease. And I think there's just a different imprint. There's like a different energetic imprint. I agree. That's why there's a different energetic imprint with the web than what we see in in many cases. Yeah, absolutely. I I think sometimes, and at least what I see in my work, and of course, you know, my sample is skewed because the people come to me need help. They're not coming to me and they're like, everything's great in the spreadsheet, you know. I'm just here because I love you. Yeah. Usually they're not. It's you know, but also I think sometimes the the um the dynamic is that they're giving and giving and giving and overextending and all of that so that they don't have to look at the it's you know an avoidance tactic too. You know, it's like I am so busy with this, I don't have time to look over there and see what's happening.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

We're so good at just distracting ourselves with various things. We're very sneaky like that. Everyone, as humans, we're like doo doo.

Linda 46:17

We are, and and you can kind of convince yourself that I must have plenty because look how much I'm giving. Right. You know, when things aren't necessarily being taken care of. I wish everybody could see what I'm seeing right now. Linda's got Ursie in her arms. Urcy's licking your mama. It's the cutest scene. She's like, Mama, it's time to go for our stroll. She's like, talk about giving.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

Give something to me. I feel very neglected.

Linda 46:48

Most neglected creature. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I want to come back and be her in my next life.

SPEAKER_03 46:54

Do you want to go for a walk? Do you want food? Do you want to do this? Do you want to do that? Oh, you want to take a nap? Go right ahead. Let me pay all the bills.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

I know it's a rough life you got there, kid. Oh, well, I know this is actually the end of our time together.

Linda 47:10

This was such a joyous and nourishing conversation. And meandering. And meandering as you know, they just they tend to be. I hope that, you know, there were some nuggets in here for you, our dear listeners, or something that um invites contemplation or a different way of looking at things. And, you know, with all of the different paradoxes that we hold in our lives and money and time and energy definitely being some of the major ones. For sure. But yeah, maybe maybe maybe a nudge too to get out and build some community in a way that's sustaining and that doesn't come from a place of depletion.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Yeah.

Linda 47:55

All right.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Until next time.