Whose Life Are You Living?

Welcome to the third episode of the Woman Uncaged Podcast with Linda Katz and Laura Gates-Lupton! This episode was recorded in December 2023.

Questions and themes we explore:
What is true for me?
What do I desire to create?
Who is the authority in our lives?
When we abdicate the subjecthood of our own lives, whose life are we living?
Where do the "shoulds" come from?

Billy Joel song "My Life." (Dig the hair!)

What are your thoughts? We'd love to hear from you! Email us: womanuncagedpodcast@gmail.com 

Transcript

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Linda 0:00

Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to the Women Uncage podcast. My name is Linda Katz, and I am here with my beloved friend, co-host, co-conspirator, colleague, editor, Ms. Laura Gates Lufton, who is a financial feminist and stands for women's liberation in money and all other matters. So excited to be here today with you, Laura. Aw, thank you, Linda. That's a beautiful introduction. I'm thrilled to be here with you too, Ms. Katz, Linda Katz, who is one of my best friends, co-conspirator, all the things, actually. We've done so many fun things together. And we've never met in person. Fun fact. Only on Zoom. We live on Zoom. Linda is a wonderful coach. She's been my coach. I've send my best friends to her. She helps women on their soul journeys. And also just to really root into who they are on the deepest level and also to help them birth their things into the world, their creative ideas, their creative ventures in a way that feels good to them, is not in the patriarchal striving hustle and grind, but in a more soulful, thoughtful way. So excited to be here with you today, Linda. A woman to that. And I feel like today we're talking about a topic that is close to both of our hearts, that I think is central to our point of view, central to our work with women, and on this pathway of soulful liberation, which is distinguishing between internal and external validation. Yeah, it's a great topic for us to be talking about right now. It's been coming up a lot with my clients over the last few weeks. It does in general, but the last few weeks especially. And I'm I'm wondering why. I've been thinking about it. Like, is it because of the holidays and being with family? I suspect that that has something to do with it, but I'm not sure. That's really interesting. I could see how being um surrounded by family might also bring up some old patterns. You know, there's that saying of if you think you're spiritually evolved or whatever it is, like go hang out with your family for a week and then you'll see, you know, it has a way of bringing out the uh the inner child in all of us. So maybe we should start by defining what do we mean by internal versus external validation? Yeah, I think the external part's really easy to define, which is looking for praise, validation, of course, um, likes, comments, no people noticing you, people paying attention. It's all outside of you. So it's it's they're validating your existence, they're validating what you're putting out into the world. Um, and and because of social media, we have certain measures of external validation that we never had before. And I think we're swimming in those waters all the time. And um yeah, it's it's very common. And I think it's really easy for us to slide into those patterns even as adults. And inner validation is something that is perhaps more uh difficult to pinpoint, right? We have to be able to rather than look outside of ourselves for uh what we think we ought to do, for what we think will garner approval, what we think will garner praise, to listen and find what is actually true for me, what do I desire to do? What do I desire to say? What do I desire to create in this situation or this particular instance, rather than what do I think is going to get me the most amount of likes or the most like my celebrity, if you will. Yes. Yeah, it's like that kind of praise. Like we're all conditioned in school. Most of us, anyway, not everyone goes to school, but those of us who have gone to traditional school settings, we're conditioned to look for the teacher's approval, you know, and whether it's actual in the classroom verbal approval, appreciative of what we're doing in the class, or just written on our papers, you know, like or on our report cards. So we grow up that way, but it we can get in trouble as adults when that becomes still is super important. Yeah, because then who are we looking to as our quote unquote teacher? Who are we looking to as the authority of our lives? Yeah, you know, and I think that that really keeps us trapped in, you know, what I call the good girl energy, which is that, right? The straight A student, the one who is who knows how to get the the gold star on her paper. And but we need that external authority to to give that to us. And when we don't have it, there can be that feeling of lostness. Okay, I have a juicy question. Okay, if you were to have somebody, a client, let's say, who is really suffering from the need of external validation, what would you say to her? That's a great question. Sorry to pause so long on a podcast. Um I guess that's how we roll on the whole podcast. We don't just have the answers at the tip of our tongue. I there's so many things I can think of saying, but I think the key thing that would be guiding me in what I'd want to say is if somebody is so focused on external validation, they're giving away their own power. I mean, that's that would be the thing. I don't know what I would specifically say necessarily, but I might ask a question about like giving away power.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Yeah.

Linda 6:16

Yeah. I certainly wouldn't want to shame her, that would be the point. So I would want to tread gently, but in my own mind, that's what I'd be thinking about. Yeah. I love that piece that you said about not shaming because I think that's so important for all of us, is that it can be really easy when we discover or see or have these patterns maybe pointed out to us that we weren't aware of. That there can be this kind of collapsing or or shame around it. And it's um one of my favorite pieces too, kind of working with that or putting it in a certain perspective is to see how, but this is what we've been taught. This particularly as women, and like you said, from the time also that we were children in school, and as as women that have been conditioned to be, you know, quote unquote good girls well into adulthood, it's like, of course we're looking for external validation. Like, of course you're doing that. That's you, you're everything in your background oftentimes is is pushing you in that direction. Everything in the culture at large currently is pushing us in that direction. So it's I it's so understandable that we um I think fall prey might be a little bit of a strong term, but you know, that we do fall prey easily to seeking that. And I think that there's also a certain part of it where part of what we're seeking is also connection with other people. We're seeking connection, we're seeking belonging, we're seeking um worthiness, uh, sense of significance. Um and so kind of teasing those things out from external validation. Right.

unknown 8:23

Right.

Linda 8:23

And the question that has come up with my clients lately is as we're exploring this, is like, well, where's the line? Because yes, I want to put out, like in my newsletter or in my social media posts, I want to put out things about my point of view without worrying too much about whether other people like it. But on the other hand, I want clients. So if I'm really putting out stuff that nobody likes, I'm not gonna get clients. So where's the line? Yeah, that's what's coming up a lot with my clients right now. Well, and I think that there's also because from a marketing standpoint, what so many of us are taught in order to, you know, is the no like trust factor. Yes, right, is that like there's that there is the big like, but I think part of that can also be, and I don't think one that we need to put out all of our opinions, maybe everything as as as business owners, you know, it's not like I don't agree with that kind of all or nothing mentality. Like we're we're allowed to have private lives, we're allowed to have opinions and thoughts and things that we keep to ourselves, just like anybody else. Um but I think that what's important is that you know, the no like trust, if we're to look at that, it's wedged between no and trust. And both of those pieces are predicated on integrity. And both of those pieces really need us to share the things that are true for us in order for our clients to realize, you know, to borrow a phrase of uh the man who brought us together, uh Mr. Tad Hargrave for marketing for hippies, you know, in order for a client and for us to know, is it a good fit? Is this a good fit for me, especially if you're a service provider, our clients do have to know a bit about us and our point of view. And that might mean that there are people who don't like it. And, you know, there is that um it can feel like a fine line. I tend to be more on the artist side than the entrepreneur. So this is probably why my my personal um piece is typically to be more of the the know and the trust and to worry less about the the like just because I think we've been so conditioned to silence who we are in order to try to get people to like us. Um yeah, but I very much understand that there is that tension, especially for people where it's tied to your livelihood. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I coach a lot of writers. I always have, you know, since I became a coach. And we get that comes up a lot there too. It's getting out of the habit of needing somebody else to like what you've written, especially a first draft, can be a little bit rough. And but and there is that tension though, around like, well, somebody's gotta like it or it'll never get published, you know, unless you self-publish. And if then if nobody likes it, nobody will buy it, you know. So so that comes up a lot. But for me, around that, I often just talk about not putting your power in other people's hands. So not wanting, not immediately putting the draft in somebody else's hands and waiting to hear what they think and thinking that's the answer. Yes, yes, you know, it's like give it to your editor, sure, give it to your agent, sure. But after you like it. Yes. Yeah, I think that's a huge piece because then there's also, and again, there are different relationships and different realities in terms of, you know, like if you're working with a big publisher, like I self-published my book. So I was the, you know, the judge and jury of the of changes, right? Like, do I want to make these changes or not? There was no like large conglomeration or agency or anything that was like, this is what we need you to do. Just me annoying you out of time with. But it was, you know, and I had a very small number of beta readers. I think I only sent it to two beta readers. And even then, you know, and I in part, I think I did that because of speaking to other people who had self-published, who had sent it out to 10 people at the same time. And you send it to 10 people, you're gonna get 10 different opinions. Yes. And if you're not grounded in yourself, your own point of view, what really matters to you in the book. Yes, I feel like that can just stifle the whole project. It can end up extremely overwhelming. Um, I have seen that happen. Yeah, and we just completely lose the connection with our own voice and what it is that we actually want to say and why we wrote the damn thing to begin with. Yeah.

unknown 13:30

Yeah.

Linda 13:30

No, you need beta readers who understand they're reading your point of view, and they have to go into it without an agenda. Because I've seen it happen where somebody has a completely different agenda than the writer. And then, you know, it becomes this crisis.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Yeah.

Linda 13:49

Yeah. That happened to uh that happened to a friend of mine, yeah, where it was a come like what she was looking for was a completely different book with a completely different point of view. Um and it can be very wounding also, right? Like when we are, and especially if we are seeking that external validation, if that is having more uh given more weight than our own inner validation, it can be extremely wounding. Right. Right. Yeah, and it is it's a delicate dance, especially, you know, because I'm an editor, obviously. I edited your book to help someone shape what they're writing and try because part of it's like in order to be expedient, you don't want to put a ton of words in the document, like, oh, I really love this, but I think if it were like this, it might be better. Instead, it's just like, how about changing this? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

Yeah.

Linda 14:48

So being at a place where you're standing firm in terms of your belief in the work before you hand it off to somebody else to do their editing is really important. It's like have you have to have that internal validation for yourself first so that you aren't, what do I want to say, like bowled over, like in a bad way by somebody else's critique or somebody else's comments.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Yeah.

Linda 15:14

Thrown off course. And this is a little bit of a side note, but I feel like this is comes up in a lot of conversations that I have as well, which is it's not bad to care what people think. I think that there is that, you know, we live in such an all or nothing kind of society. So there is this belief that, okay, if I if if external, we don't want to rely too much on external validation, but then care, I don't want to care at all what other people think, right? And then we end up with this really defended kind of unfeeling and really untrue response. Because I think if you're a human being and you've created something of that you believe is of beauty of value or value for someone else, right? Which is why we share our work in the world, you know. If I otherwise I'd write in my journal, I want to try to publish a book, right? There will be a part of me that cares deeply what other people think. But that part doesn't need to run the show. Exactly. But I can relate to her at the same time that there that and that there is that, there's beauty in that. There's beauty in that, there's the softness of that, there's the desire to have a positive impact, right? To to own that, but at the same time stay rooted, like we've been saying, in that in our sense of self, in what our reason is for creating whatever it is that we're creating, if it's a program, if it's a book, if it's a podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be seen.

unknown 16:58

Yeah.

Linda 16:59

Which unfortunately for a lot of women, we've been taught that there's something wrong with wanting to be seen. Like, who does she think she is? Why is she dressing that way? She's just trying to get attention. So that's the other piece, is that I I do I agree with everything you just said about being rooted and you know, grounded in who you are and going out from that place. But it's okay to want to be seen. It's okay to want somebody to like your work. It's okay to have to want somebody to say, oh, that really resonates with me. Of course, because that's why so often part of the reason why we do the thing, right? It's that creative process coming into its uh its completion to a certain degree, right? Of being able to share it with another. And yeah, I think that that's so huge. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be seen. Right. I think it's so deeply human. Yes. And we want to be seen. Absolutely. And it can be problematic for women because we've been taught that that's bad. So it's it's there's nothing wrong with wanting to be seen. I think where we get into trouble is where we want everybody to see us and understand us. So we feel like we have to explain, we have to, you know, make sure that everybody's on board. That's where the problem comes in. And when we try to control, right, kind of what you said there, when we control how other people see us, yes, through this kind of maybe slight manipulation or chameleon behavior in order to make sure that that we are seen in the best possible light. Yeah, you wrote about that so beautifully in your book about what it's like to do that chameleon dance, you know, to like try to make sure you're being the person the person in front of you wants you to be, and how exhausting that is, and how you lose yourself in the process.

unknown 19:05

Yeah.

Linda 19:06

You end up not knowing what is actually true. You don't know, like, you know, when all you have is various version versions of the persona that you kind of parade out to the world, you lose track of well, what's underneath? I almost find it like a not like a hologram, but I almost see it like, you know, there's all these flat kind of hologram-esque versions of you pointing in different directions, but in the center, what is there?

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Yeah.

Linda 19:37

And I think that's really the the journey for for so many women. And I know that that's you know, what we also work with women on is developing that center. So that we can, we're not, there's not, we don't fear that there's like a hollow in the middle anymore. Yeah. Yeah, which means that you can tolerate and be comfortable with other people maybe not understanding you, other people maybe not understanding your choices, other people maybe not accepting your choices. Because if you're standing firm in your choices, you don't need that. You don't need you might like it, you know. It's like I I love it when my mom says, Oh, I think you made such a smart decision there. You know, like, oh wow. Thanks, mom. I love that. But there was there are times when she doesn't feel like the homeschooling thing. It took a long time for her to get on board. We homeschooled our kids, you know. And and I just had to stay strong in what I believe, like my own convictions around that.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Yeah.

Linda 20:42

It's a great exercise, by the way. I did it for a lot of years. Yes. But you know, it's like so there's nothing wrong with wanting people to understand. It's just a problem when it becomes so important. It's more important than your own opinion. Yes. Yeah. It's like we abdicate the subjecthood of our own lives. Yes. Right. And the life that we begin to live is not our own. That's the way that I've often said it is that we we one day wake up and we look around. Hopefully, if we're lucky, we get that moment of like, oh shit, like whose life am I even living?

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Yeah.

Linda 21:23

Right? Because we've been living according to what other people believe we should do, be, say, uh, where we should work, all of these things. And so we wake up one day and it's like, well, this, I never lived my own life. I lived a life that other that other people wanted for me without even stopping to question. Like, what what do I want? What is the life that really speaks to me? And this is something, you know, that we've talked about a lot that I think is part of the impetus of this podcast, too, is like, well, there are so many ways to do this thing. called life. Yes. And and we've been kind of put in the monoculture that tells us that there are very few and has has stamped out the like real diversity and and beauty of of life. Yep. Yep. That's why it's so refreshing when you see somebody who's doing life their own way and seems to like not in the rebel sense, not in the like fuck you, I'm doing whatever the hell I want, but more in the like this is who I am and this is what I'm doing. Like come along if you want to don't if you don't want to like here I am. Yep. I feel like there's such freedom and inspiration and interest, you know, like it's kind of like the when Harry met Sally it's like oh my God I'll have what she's having you know that sense of just like I am me. And even if you're I'm not going to be that same person obviously but just that sense of comfort and the ability to unapologetically move through the world as yourself making your own choices is without without having to over explain and over justify and all those pieces that come in when you're too focused on external validation. Over explaining is something that I feel I work with my clients on a lot as they're coming out of the good girl energy because you know is in the good girl we have a real issue with being able to say no. Right? That's because if somebody's asked us to do something there's the expectation or the desire we can sense that they want us to say yes because why else would they have asked otherwise and so if heavens to Betsy we're going to say no we need to make sure that they very much understand why we're saying no. Yes. It's like here's the text message yes yes uh-huh exactly they understand and they approve it's a valid quote unquote reason for saying no to to be able to say like I'm not going to do that at this time I don't you know I don't really want to like whatever it is is so it brings up so many feelings and so many bodily sensations that I think it's really important to name that it's like these things that seem really small on the outside have a whole body response oftentimes that's happening within a person to simply say like no I don't actually want to do that or no I'm not interested. I'm not interested right like rather than let me find an excuse of like oh but I have to take the kids here and then we're doing this and we're trying to save money for this and so we can't really like all of the reasons that it's like let me package this to make sure that I want to say no but I want you to think that I'm saying no because I have to right it's like the pushing off the responsibility into all of our external circumstances when in reality it's like I just don't want to right I'm just not interested. Just the other day I was thinking about when I was finishing grad school and I interviewed in a bunch of places. I I knew that when I graduated had two weeks worth of money so I had to get a job right away. And so I interviewed a bunch of places and I got three job offers. And one of the places it was a woman who I had interviewed with and who called me to make the offer and when I turned her down she said oh oh but we we really wanted you we we're all excited about you like you no you can't say no like we we really wanted you to come here and that was so hard for me to like stick with the no I mean I'm still thinking about it. You still remember it you remember it verbatim right yeah the other day I was making the bed and for whatever reason I started thinking about this and I I remember how it felt in my chest I felt like deflated I felt horrible like I'd hurt these people that didn't even know I mean who was the we I interviewed with like two people in that agency this was in 1991. Wow yeah and I had not been trained at all for that moment like how do you say no to a job offer like I never said no to one before I always said yes. Yeah you know but when you have three you can't say yes to all of them or it's becomes weird some weird sitcom where you're running around between jobs you know but like yeah but yeah it felt awful uh uh and I think we need to normalize that like that it's we are going to feel it and especially you know as women I think there is this intense fear of disappointing other people and and if we disappoint someone else by being true to ourselves like oh it feels like shit right like there's like the deflating like I know this might be on audio but there was a whole like concaving of the chest and the shoulders coming down you know that oh if I've hurt like you said I've hurt someone yeah what and then it it could traps into I've hurt someone I've disappointed someone I've done something bad I've done something wrong I'm a bad person. It's very quick how it kind of like can often fall into that that line yes and to be unable to be a good girl right we always have to be good and so if we're disappointing someone else regardless of the circumstance oftentimes like if you have three job offers you are going to disappoint two people but even then it's like oh you know like it's like how do we retain our humanity and our connection but at the same time like not have it be the the crushing thing that we remember 30 years later. Yeah I know it's like the job offer was in Springfield Massachusetts and I took a job in Fall River and thank goodness because I never had to run into that woman because I don't know what I would have done. It would have been like you probably hate me but well and it's it's also very interesting in the story of you know like the the person the quote unquote authority in this case and the ability to handle someone else's no. Yes. Right like the I'm gonna take this really personally like what do you think you're saying no and we all have those people in our lives right that it's like we may not want to feel comfortable saying no for oftentimes because the response can be something akin to what you experienced. Right. And I think one of as women we are not raised to make a choice based on our own thoughts feelings and opinions which is part of the problem. So you're right if so you have three job offers you have to make a choice. And I certainly didn't have much experience with that. Like so much of my life I went where I was told to go you know and I think that's really common. It's really crazy you can be I because a lot of the women I work with are in their 50s some are in their 40s 50s 60s you know that range and it's kind of amazing like when women talk about like having to make a big choice and realizing like wow I haven't had to make too many like this like I've just kind of gone along with what's been expected of me or what's been handed to me. Mm-hmm Yeah it reminds me of another like a Marian Woodman quote of you know when we take away that and I'm gonna paraphrase it but that kind of superstructure of the should right what I call the Tyrant King energy of like I should do this, I should do that. When we when we take that away or we begin to question it or begin to see it there we can oftentimes be left with a void because again we're so unaccustomed to making our own choices and to knowing like what is it that I really want like how do I make this choice from the center of me and so because again like kind of circling back to this topic we are so accustomed to relying on external validation which really meshes perfectly with the shoulds right like we never we don't question where do the shoulds come from right according to who right like I should go do this. Like what is the authority that goes unquestioned and um yeah and and the the the relationship there I think that you brought forth is so important with with choice and with agency and circling back to a word you said earlier to your own power. Yes because one thing I was also thinking about as you were just speaking is that it's easier sometimes to make a choice in rebellion you know if you're making a choice where it's again you know it's going against that should it's sometimes easier to do that in that rebel energy of like well fuck you I'm doing this anyway than it is to to sit in a grounded place and think well people aren't going to like this but this is what I'm gonna choose. Yes. Yeah and because that is a powerful yeah because that's your own power that's the you know you're tapping into your own power whereas the rebel you get a little bit of power from the whoever the should is whoever the authority is because you're like snatching it away and being like I'm gonna go do this. Try to stop me. Yes yeah but we end up still kind of being in like infantilized right we're still kind of in the in response or reaction to the the authority figure uh rather than like you said really standing in ourselves and saying like there's gonna be I love the way you said that like there are going to be people who really don't like this and I'm gonna do it anyway. Yeah it feels much harder. It feels much more powerful interesting yeah it is interesting because I so many of the women I work with when they get uh in touch with their own power they're a little bit freaked out. You know it's like in part because it's a foreign experience we don't have a lot of that experience um and sometimes their only relationship to it is in like a crisis where they tap into their power around a crisis it's usually for someone else's benefit and they're much more comfortable with that than when they tap into it for themselves their own like making a choice for themselves. Yeah oh man that resonates so much yes yeah it's um it is it is really I think for so many of us quite foreign which is why we tend to yeah write about this in the book too for so long in order to say no it would have to come from the rebel energy yeah like it would be the like I've let everything like roll off my back roll off my back until like one it would be like the straw that broke the camel's back and then the reactivity would come out and it would be not the grounded empowered no I choose something different. It'd be like I'm gonna push I'm gonna harden like there is and and and that I think actually erodes our trust in ourselves right because it's not you know it can feel a little like out of our own control right like it's just like versus this that you're describing and that you know I have experienced also in times of crisis where I'm like wow I'm really good at this you know and it's it like we've had this conversation before and it's it's how do we tap into that again like you were saying not necessarily just on other people's behalf and not necessarily just when there's a crisis right but when it's like when we're coming to a choice that is important in our own lives that we can trust that we know the right decision to make because I think that there is this like in a crisis there comes this point of like this is what we're gonna do. Right like the wise the wise and wild woman comes forth fully and she's like okay the shit's hitting the fan I need you to do this I need you to do this this is what we're gonna do we're gonna take care of this right now it comes in it's like this alpha energy it's healthy it's calm it puts others at ease but so often when we're making choices in our own lives it's like but they don't know but maybe this or maybe that and it's it's the antithesis of like the I'm delegating and I'm fully like capable and in charge of the situation. It's like dear headlights let me let me explain that's the reason why I want to do this let me let's talk about it like maybe you'll understand uh uh yeah it's and this is what we're this is what we're talking about when we're you know like when we're talking about woman uncaged when we're talking about liberation and it's you know this is this is what it looks like and it's oftentimes messy it's oftentimes messy for me there's a bunch of you know so many times that I still come at it with a kind of energy rather than being able to pull forth that power there are still times when I fall into external validation like a 13 year old girl it happens less often right but it still happens and it's you know I think I want to share that also that it's I I feel like and I don't want to speak for you Laura but it's it we're sharing from this place of like we are unlearning and remembering alongside you you know we have there are the things that we have the expertise the the experience the paths that we have walked and it's not a it's not going to ever be perfect properly it can't be no because that's not life. No perfection is not life it's death it is it is but yeah just this past week I had a whole thing which you know about Linda of course um where I'm in a class essentially and the teacher asked us to post our homework and for two weeks nobody did and I had mine done but I didn't really want to post it first and I finally did the day before it was due and then nobody liked it, commented or anything on it for six hours. And I kept checking I'll admit to see if there was any response in part because I wasn't sure I did it particularly well although I sent it to Linda first and she looked it over and was like this is careful. So I got Linda's validation but and then finally somebody else posted their homework and the next day a whole bunch of people did and I don't think I've told you this actually but the teacher went through and commented on everybody's homework but mine. Oh wow interesting yeah and I I I had to talk to myself this is like two days of me talking to myself around like okay you're not in this for validation you're in this because you you want to set up something for yourself that's what this homework was all about sort of a plan for myself I don't need anybody else to approve that plan it's really okay like you're not the straight A student anymore you don't you know it's like I was talking to myself for these two days and and because the thoughts would come right of like yeah oh she didn't like it nobody likes it nobody's commented on it. How come she commented on everybody else's like yeah you know I didn't get a gold star for going first yes yeah all that schoolgirl stuff uh huh uh and it's so interesting and I think that that's really important and I appreciate you sharing it because it's also the noticing that there are certain situations right again we tend to have this kind of cultural bias of how you do one thing is how you do everything and that's bullshit. I hate it it's just bullshit and you know it's like that this it there are certain situations that will bring forth those feelings right like if we're in a new class quote unquote with people that we don't know and a new teacher quote unquote right that naturally it's going to bring forth some of those old like the the schoolgirl patterns that we want to have the gold star and we want to be seen and validated. You know it's and to have that self-compassion and to have that self-awareness and to be able to notice right the thoughts as they come but not believing them right it's like oh yep here's um here is this thing coming up again right here are these feelings of vulnerability because it's horribly vulnerable to go first and to be in a new group especially and to go first. You know it's like oh to have that to be able to have that self-compassion that self-awareness um I think that's really what what it's about in so many ways. Yeah and you know you're also thank you for all that by the way and also thank you for being the person who looked at it first. So I had you in my corner which was making me think about a really important point around all of this which is that there are times when you do want someone else's validation it's important to know who to go to like you don't go to the uncle who has never said a kind word to you. You know if your mother's highly critical you don't go to her you go to the person who's generally in your corner and who will tell you the truth. Like I knew you would like say to me like oh I don't know about this point like can you explain this to me or help me understand it better or this doesn't seem to fit or whatever. I knew you'd be honest. So it's not that but it's who's the person who's generally gets you and is on your side yeah yeah I think especially for something vulnerable. Yep because that can fortify us you know that that can fortify us as we go out into this great big world to have those people that we care about and that know us and that see us. Yes that that it it can be like a balm in a world that can oftentimes feel rather prickly. And it reminds me of something I think it's Brene Brown speaks about um where we will all have people in our lives and we ought to have people in our lives that we really do care what they think. Yeah you know if if a an if you if my husband if my best friend from sixth grade is like Linda I think you're kind of going like a little too far on this like I think that whatever it is that's an invitation for me to slow down and be like huh okay if these people that really know me that know my heart that know my soul are kind of you know offering these pieces of feedback that means something completely different to me than Joe Schmo commenting on my Instagram post. You know what I mean? Like yes there is that again it's like the nuance the contextualization the um considering yeah exactly and then in a culture that we tend to be very all or nothing like this is good, this is bad, inner validation yes extra validation no and it's like and here are some gray areas yeah well in part it's because if this were the rebel we were talking about that's the lone wolf you know that kind of energy where I'm gonna do this myself it's my way or the highway I'm out there you know whatever you know all those tropes. Yep that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about being grounded in who you are and making your own choices but also having connections with other people and when you're connected to other people sometimes those choices impact them. Yes and their opinions do matter and sometimes people can see things that we aren't seeing. So you know like yesterday I was sitting with a client who's going through a rough time and she like probably about 45 minutes into the session so we've been talking about she said are you seeing something I'm not seeing and I was and so I did share it you know yeah but that's because that's part of the role and she was ready to hear it and you know and it's in a loving way it's not like well actually I think you're really screwing up let me tell you how I see that you know it's like it wasn't that at all of the times goes over so well.

unknown 43:57

Yes

Linda 44:00

But yeah, there's a lot of nuance to all of this. It's not, it's not that I guess when I think about sometimes the the way people think about making choices, especially ones that aren't popular, is it's like I'm burning it all down. And that's not what we're talking about here. Yep. We're talking about not burning your bridges. And even if like I made a choice that you absolutely hated and you told me, but it's important to me, then I'm gonna stay with my choice.

unknown 44:32

Yeah.

Linda 44:32

So I'm sorry, Linda, I'm going with the purple hair. I fully embrace your purple hair. Yes, yes. And I think that I mean, this could be a a topic all its own, but I think this is a an art form that we're losing capacity for, which is to be able to tolerate conflict inside the container of relationship. Yeah. That and I think that leads to the burning it all down, right? Like I'm gonna burn it all down and go my own way because I cannot tolerate that there might be conflict or somebody might have a different opinion, or and that they can have their opinion of me and what I'm doing, and I can still do it if that's what matters. And I can still be in relationship with you to a certain degree, right? We're not talking about anybody being in horrible relationships, right? Right, right. But it's so often I feel like we've lost that ability to um hold any kind of difference um in a lot of different ways. And I think that's that's part and parcel of this as well. Yeah. And it's also completely legitimate to tell somebody you don't want to hear their opinion. If you know, and it's agree to disagree kind of moment of like, actually, I know this, you're not gonna be happy about this, and I've made my choice, and I just don't want to hear it. Reminds me of uh, was it Billy Joel, my life? It's like one of my favorite lyrics is like, you can speak your mind, but not on my time. Oh my god, that is the mantra for my 40s. You can speak your mind, but not on my time. I don't care. You can have your whole little side party and talk about how I'm making a mess of my life and what am I doing? I don't want to hear it. Yeah. Yeah. I totally. Yeah, totally. Like that's that's the piece around like instead of explaining to somebody and trying to get them on their side on your side, if you just know they're not gonna get it, if you just know they're not gonna decide, being like, just don't go there. Like, sure, go share that with somebody else. You do you, you do you, and I'm over here doing me, and I and I still love you.

unknown 46:49

Yep.

Linda 46:51

Exactly. Yeah. Well, that seems like a good place to wrap up for today. It does. This was a juicy conversation, and we'd love to hear from you guys how how this lands for you, how you're experiencing this dance of inner and external validation, where you may struggle with it, where your wins are, where you feel like you're moving towards. Yeah, please uh drop us a line and let us know. Yeah, and maybe we'll talk about it. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for listening. And until next time, we are sending you lots of freedom loving, uncaged vibes.